<p>I heard that Berkeley Graduate program ranks at the very top position(almost parelled with MIT, Harvard in engineering) But how strong is undergrad program..? I guess the student-professor ratio of 17:1 quite much weakens it though the faculty members are really great.</p>
<p>The faculty staff ratio is lower then that. Anyway, undergrad at Cal is great. Dumb people like to say its not, but that's an old wifes tale. You mentioned engineering, well USNews says its ranked third in the country. They also said UG business is third in the country. I don't know if they, or anyone else for that matter, have ranked more UG departments, but as a student there I can tell you that from my experience UG is awesome.</p>
<p>Berkeley is known for it's subpar undergrad. Liars like to claim that the Berkeley undergrad isn't in shambles.</p>
<p>Ubermensch - I dont think you know anything about Cal's undergrad program. You are talking out of your ass.</p>
<p>Don't listen to Uberkook, he's justifiably upset that he goes to a community college and will end up pumping your gas. I feel sorry for the guy, he's got a 2.1 GPA at community college and he cries himself to sleep at night with his blue and gold Cal blanky. I've offered to tutor him to help him raise his grades so maybe he could tranfer to S.F. State, but he says that it no use because he was born to pump gas. I guess its been the family job for three generations or something. All I can say, Uberkook, is just be proud. That gas isn't going to pump itself. Those toilets aren't going to scrub themselves. YOU ARE NEEDED. Take comfort in that!</p>
<p>/\ Dude that wasn't really necessary. I mean, sure he's immature to post something like that on the Cal board, but don't become one of "them" by taking shots at him.</p>
<p>Uber is known for his trolling on these boards. Berkeley's subpar undergraduate education leads many students into amazing jobs and graduate schools. See how many professors came from Berkeley undergrad, and tell me how subpar it is, then. Am I saying that Cal hosts the best undergraduate situation in the world? Well, even without seeing everything about every schools with undergraduates, i would guess not. But subpar? So it's only known as one of the best. How subpar, indeed.<br>
What do you mean by best? Are you looking for the lowest student-faculty ratio? Perhaps a liberal arts college might be the best choice for you. If you're more concerned with general ranking systems, Berkeley hovers around the top of most of the lists on which it appears, particularly in the graduate area. What are you looking for when you say "best," and in what area of study do you wish to pursue?</p>
<p>Berkeley undergrad has seen better days, (mostly due to state budget cuts) but it's still one of the best in the country, and it's seen much worse. Things fluctuate, they always do. The quality of schools ebbs and flows, though not too much. The Grad Schools at Cal are probably better and get more attention/funding, but the Undergrad is good -- especially if you put in the effort. Of course, this is from conjecture. You can't lose with a Berkeley UG education. The UG experience at Cal is all about being a self-starter and making the most of what you have. For some, Cal UG is absolutely awful, and for others -- it's the greatest thing in the world. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle and still get a excellent education.</p>
<p>The Undergrad issues at Cal are not something you really have to worry about. Cal Students gotta worry more about quality of life than the quality of their education.</p>
<p>Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. you should have more class. An ad hominem isn't the best way to debate.</p>
<p>Berkeley has very good undergraduate programs. The best students at Berkeley have similar opportunities in terms of research &c. as the best students at the best private research schools (your MITs and Harvards). </p>
<p>However, Berkeley has a very large undergraduate body so weaker and/or less motivated students get less attention and thus have fewer opportunities than they would at private schools. </p>
<p>In other words, the quality of the Berkeley undergraduate program is heavily dependent on the student in question. (In contrast, the quality of the Amherst undergraduate program will tend to be very high for all students, including the weaker ones).</p>
<p>i'd have to agree with andrew. cal undergrad is what you make of it. it's a fairly large school known for red tape and an impersonal administration. however, due to its size and consistent reputation (drawing in great faculty), it also offers amazing opportunities you won't find at other schools. if you don't have a backbone and/or don't find one quickly, you'll probably end up a little lost. if you're willing to look around and just throw yourself out there, you'll probably have a good time, get a great education, and meet some crazy people.</p>
<p>from a techie point of view, the research that undergrads can get involved with is much more than i ever expected. the high grad rankings draw in great grad students and the benefits trickle down to the undergrad level. the competitiveness everybody kept warning me about is practically non-existent. professors are usually very friendly and don't mind talking to undergrads at all. but, again, it's up to the undergrad to talk to the professors and grad students... to find that research position or internship...</p>
<p>I'm just giving the guy what he wants. He comes here and posts insane things about Cal looking for what, a civil conversation? No way, he's looking to ruffle some feathers and pick some fights, which is fine, I'll oblige him. He's a masochist.</p>
<p>What flippityflop said is absolutely true. I like many Cal students look back and wish I had been braver and taken more advantage of the school, but I came from a small High School, so it was hard to bring up the courage to go out and get involved. Still is, but I'll try to embrace a little bit of it once I get back from my EAP-Year.</p>
<p>Maybe that's an advantage for me, since I come from a very large high school 4k+ students... but still much smaller than UCB ;)</p>
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I heard that Berkeley Graduate program ranks at the very top position(almost parelled with MIT, Harvard in engineering)
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<p>Uh, Harvard in engineering? Uh, Harvard does not have particularly strong graduate engineering programs. Sciences? Yes. But engineering? Not really. </p>
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See how many professors came from Berkeley undergrad, and tell me how subpar it is, then.
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<p>That's actually not a bad way to do it. I would like to see a study that shows where the top profs went to undergrad (not grad, but undergrad), normalized it for student population size, and compare Berkeley to other famous schools. I'm afraid to say that at first blush, Berkeley probably won't rank at the top. For example, I think somebody discovered that of all the Nobel Prize winners in history, I believe only a small handful went to Berkeley for undergrad, a fact that is even more poignant when you consider how large the Berkeley undergrad program is. But in any case, if anybody wants to actually do the study, that would be interesting.</p>
<p>
[quote]
i'd have to agree with andrew. cal undergrad is what you make of it. it's a fairly large school known for red tape and an impersonal administration. however, due to its size and consistent reputation (drawing in great faculty), it also offers amazing opportunities you won't find at other schools. if you don't have a backbone and/or don't find one quickly, you'll probably end up a little lost.
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</p>
<p>
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...the quality of the Berkeley undergraduate program is heavily dependent on the student in question. (In contrast, the quality of the Amherst undergraduate program will tend to be very high for all students, including the weaker ones).
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</p>
<p>I think I largely agree with the sentiments here. Berkeley has the resources to provide a strong undergraduate education, however it takes a certain aggressive, pushy personality to truly access those resources, and not everybody has that kind of personality. If you have that kind of personality, you can get an education that will compare to that of any school. If you don't, you may be better off going somewhere else.</p>
<p>I pretty much agree with sakky here.</p>
<p>You just need to find and take advantage of the opportunities during Berkeley's undergrad rather than to wait for something to come.</p>
<p>"You just need to find and take advantage of the opportunities during Berkeley's undergrad rather than to wait for something to come."</p>
<p>I don't get this at all. Why should you have to fight so darn hard for scarce opportunities? Sure some highly highly resourceful people may be able to fight for the same number of opportunities that a normal person at HYPS enjoys. However, I can make the argument that if those highly resourceful people went to HYPS they would have even more opportunities at their disposal. Just to clarfiy my argument, let me give you guys an analogy. Pretend that both Berkeley and Princeton were gold mining areas and the students were gold miners. (Even though Princeton has a far higher endowment than Berkeley, for the sake of argument lets say the resources of both schools are the same.) So there's the same amount of gold in each mine. Well with like 30,000-40,000 undergrads mining in Berk for gold, sure there might be a few lucky gold miners who strike it rich. But there's simply not enough gold for everyone to have, and the majority of people are going to come out disappointed or even empty-handed(the metaphorical drop-outs). In the Princeton mine, there aren't so many kids competing for resources, and each kid even gets to have their own personal metal detector and the most advanced mining tools. Almost all of the kids are going to strike it rich because there is simply so much gold available for each student. So now even the unresourceful people can strike it rich. The extremely resourceful people strike it extremely rich. And if those highly resourceful people from Berkeley came over to the Princeton mine, don't you think they'd strike it even richer than they did in the Berkeley mine? </p>
<p>Now I also heard the recurring argument that this is just like the real world. Not everyone gets to have their own metal detector, and not everyone can have their own private gold mine with overflowing veins. However, what's the friggin point of going to college if your college is just like the crappy world out there. With that line of logic, I should just go bum around the streets of San Francisco as a homeless man, and my education would be just like the one I'd get at Berkeley? After all, I'd be living in the real world and I'd have to fight so hard for the very resources that everyone else takes for granted. It'll toughen me up, neh?</p>
<p>Blah, blah, blah...um, yeah, Berkeley isn't Princeton. If you come to Berkeley you will have to work harder for the same opportunities that you would take for granted at Princeton. Is this surprising anyone? No? Ok, well lets all thank collegekid for his solid grasp of all things obvious. Just to beat collegekid to the punch on a view more insighful college observations, I'll tell you that it'll be colder at UMich than at Florida St. Its harder to surf at Northwestern than it is at UCSD. And there are more women at Arizona than Alaska. Alright Collegekid, I've done your job for you so you can go back under your bridge now.</p>
<p>I think he was pointing out the folly of making out Berkeley's opportunities to be a good thing. For example, tons of people say that it toughens you up and teaches you how to hack it in the real world.</p>