<p>Kathendrickson makes a good point. Michigan fans are very loyal and love their school, but it is impossible to determine whether they are the "best fans". I think most top football programs can make a claim to having the best fans. Also, having the largest football stadium doesn't mean that Michigan has the best game-day atmosphere or the wildest/craziest fans. There is no doubt that Michigan has one of the top 10 stadia in the nation and that game-day in Ann Arbor is special, but I can same the same thng of a dozen or so colleges, including Penn State, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Tennessee, Notre Dame, University of Washington, Georgia, UT-Austin, USC and a few others.</p>
<p>If you're looking for a university that offers top departments in virtually everything, has a great college town, has top athletics, and is well-respected once you graduate, then there really is no better place than the University of Michigan.</p>
<p>Interesting to see what you all think. However, I think we should focus this discussion on undergraduate. A great graduate program has little to do with UG.</p>
<p>Maguo, I am pretty sure we only focused on criteria that directly impact the quality of undergraduate education. </p>
<p>And don't fall prey to the tired CC cliche that the quality of graduate programs does not impact the quality of undergraduate programs. That's what people who go to elite universities that don't have top graduate programs say. But let me tell you, the benefits of top graduate programs that come along with top undergraduate programs are incalculable. I took a couple of graduate level classes with top scholars. The respect you earn from World class professors when you take such high level classes is invaluable.</p>
<p>Is it true that U-M is (Grad level):</p>
<ul>
<li><p>one of just two universities (Stanford being the other) having top 10 programs in Business, Engineering, Law and Medicine</p></li>
<li><p>one of 4 universities (Stanford, Harvard and UC Berkeley being the others) to be ranked in the top 20 in every single discipline offered by the university</p></li>
</ul>
<p>I read this somewhere but cannot remember where.</p>
<p>Yes, it is true, Michigan is one of just two universities to have top 10 graduate professional programs in Business, Engineering, Law and Medicine. In fact, Michigan is probably the only university in the nation to have top 10 graduate professional programs in every field imaginable, including Archiecture, Dentistry, Public Affairs, Public Health, Music and Social Work. And Michigan is indeed one of just 4 or 5 universities to have top 20 departments in every single academic discipline according to the USNWR. In fact, in 11 of those 12 disciplines, Michigan was ranked among the top 14! hehe</p>
<p>Very few people would argue that Michigan doesn't belong among the top 10 graduate schools in the US...or even among the top 10 overall universities in the nation. Where you will see a lot of resistance, especially on this forum but also among a chunk of high school students and their not-so-educated parents is in the concept that Michigan is one of the top 10 undergraduate universities in the nation.</p>
<p>Top ten? I doubt it. We can easily argue that Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech, and Berkeley are all better. And you can argue that three of the following are better: Columbia, Brown, Duke, Penn, Cornell, Johns Hopkins, WUSTL, Dartmouth. I can maybe see UM in the top 15, but not in the top ten.</p>
<p>Hence why Alexandre said there's a "resistance...among a chunk of high school students and their not-so-educated parents" to thinking Michigan is not a top 10 undergrad university.</p>
<p>Maguo, it depends how you look at it. In some ways, yes, Michigan is a top 20 but not top 10 undergraduate institution. In other ways, Michigan is unquestionably a top 10 undergraduate institution. Overall, in terms of complete undergraduate academic excellence, I would break it up as follows:</p>
<p>Definite top 10 undergraduate research universities:
Harvard University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Princeton University
Stanford University
Yale University</p>
<p>Most likely top 10 undergraduate research universities:
California Institute of Technology
Columbia University
University of California-Berkeley</p>
<p>Arguably top 10 undergraduate research universities:
Brown University
Cornell University
Dartmouth College
Duke University
Johns Hopkins Unibersity
Northwestern University
University of Chicago
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
University of Pennsylvania</p>
<p>And just for the record Maguo, Washington University does not make a strong case for top 10 consideration. It is certainly a good university, but it does not excel in any way.</p>
<p>Washington U has a great Business school, as good or better than Ross. WU's undergraduate biology program is also very strong, and one of the best med schools in the country. It's architecture is also top.<br>
[quote]
Very few people would argue that Michigan doesn't belong among the top 10 graduate schools in the US...or even among the top 10 overall universities in the nation.
[/quote]
This is where you and I really disagree. I don't think there are that many people who think UM is top 10. When you hear that one graduates from UM, you go, "hey you're pretty smart". But you hear about a Duke grad and you go "hey, you're a genius".</p>
<p>It's Michigan's breadth that has earned the respect of so many. Not just that it's good in a few departments, but that it has exemplary programs in discipline after discipline, field after field. That's why it may (in some minds) "beat out" schools that you'd otherwise consider more prestigious. Those schools have programs that are narrower in scope, so no matter how excellent they are, they simply aren't going to hit as many top rankings by discipline, produce as many top faculty, be on as many radar screens for specific fields. </p>
<p>This is not as criticism of these schools--just an explanation of why Michigan has the "wow" factor among scholars and academics.</p>
<p>When I think of A Duke grad I think of a suburban kid who has had every advantage, pushy parents and worked hard. I do not think of a genius.</p>
<p>My parents are both Duke grads, but there's no way I would have considered going their rather than Michigan. I hold no regrets and couldn't imagine a better place to be for one's undergraduate education as UM.</p>
<p>Maguo, first of all, Ross is better than Olin. Those two programs aren't even in the same ball park. Ross is ranked #2 or #3 at the undergraduate level. I remember a year when it was ranked #1, tied with Wharton. Olin is not ranked in the top 10 at the undergraduate level, and let me tell you, the difference between the top 3 and programs that aren't ranked among the top 10 in undergraduate Business is significant because roughly half of the top 20 Business schools (including Harvard, Northwestern, Chicago, Stanford, Columbia, Dartmouth, Duke and Yale) do not have undergraduate Business programs.</p>
<p>And Michigan and Washington University have Biology departments ranked at the same level. I believe they were tied at #14 according to the USNWR. Michigan and Washington University have roughly equal medical schools. </p>
<p>And one more thing Maguo, nobody who is truly educated will ever assume somebody is a genius until they evaluate them properly. I guess educated people just aren't that impressed by brand name. Trust me, if you tell a professor at a top university or a corporate recruiter at an exclusive firm that you attend Duke, you will not get a different or more positive reaction than if you say you went to Michigan. I know because I attended Michigan and Cornell and I get the same reaction for both. So yes, if you want to impress your friends and your familly acquaintances, don't come to Michigan. But if you only care about impressing the academic and corporate elites, Michigan will do nicely.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Washington U has a great Business school, as good or better than Ross.
[/quote]
Says who? USNWR ranks Ross #3 for undergrad and #10 for MBA, compared to Olin at #12 and a dismal #32. Every ranking I've seen have Ross way ahead of Olin.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's architecture is also top.
[/quote]
I've never heard of WUSTL having a top ranked architecture program. Prove it! Name one source where WUSTL architecture is ranked among the top 15 in the nation. On the other hand, Michigan's architecture program is ranked anywhere from 5th to 15th depending on the poll. For example, Michigan was ranked 8th, 5th and 5th by DesignIntelligence in '03, '02 and '01 respectively.</p>
<p>
[quote]
one of the best med schools in the country
[/quote]
Agreed. WUSTL's medical program is ranked in the top 3. But isn't medical school a graduate program?</p>
<p>
[quote]
WU's undergraduate biology program is also very strong
[/quote]
It's odd that its grad program is not that strong. USNWR has it at #14, same as Michigan.</p>
<p>Shall we talk about engineering, social sciences, East Asian languages, music, etc?</p>
<p>Okay, so I've really got very little basis for my points; just trying to fuel a conversation. But what I do know is that WU's med school is ranked #3 by USNWR. UM's is ranked #9.</p>
<p>Absolutely Maguo, Washington University has an amazing Medical school. I would never debate that point. Michigan's medical school isn't chopped liver either though. In fact, Michigan and Washington University have identical assessment scores according to Medical School doctors and Residency Directors. What gives Washington University Medical School an edge over Michigan Medical school is their research spending and research spending per professor.</p>
<p>Anyway, like I said, Washington University is an excellent university, but it isn't quite as good as the schools I listed above. Michigan can make a solid case for top 10 consideration...Washington U cannot.</p>
<p>You guys all use USNWR as the ranking when UM is looked at favorably, but when USNWR's ranking is not good, you do not refer to it. The USNWR ranks UM at 27. I wish you would all use the same ranking for everything.</p>
<p>First of all Maguo, we do not only use the USNWR. We also use the NRC (for graduate school subject rankings), the Fiske Guide (for undergraduate academic excellence) , Business Week (for Business school rankings).</p>
<p>Secondly, you are the one who brought up the Buisness school, Medical school, Biology and Architecture programs.</p>
<p>Thirdly, the graduate school rankings and undergraduate Business and Engineering rankings are primarily a function of peer assessment scores and recruiter/professional assessment scores. Those assessment scores accounts for roughly 40%-50% of the graduate professional school rankings and 100% of the graduate school subject (Biology, Chemistry, Computer Science, Economics, English, Geology, History, Mathematics, Physics, Political Science, Psychology and Socioliogy) rankings and undergraduate Engineering Business school rankings. On the other hand, the overall college undegraduate rankings are derived from the the USNWR formula, which is clearly flawed and designed to favor smaller private institutions. If you want to compare the graduate and undergraduate rankings of the USNWR, just look at the peer assessment scores. Michigan is ranked between #7 and #13 in the nation for undergraduate academics. I'd say that's in line with what most academics and corporate recruiters are saying...Michigan is a top 20 undergraduate institutions, possibly even top 10. </p>
<p>Finally, Michigan is not ranked #27 according to the latest overall USNWR college rankings, it is ranked #25. </p>
<p>At any rate Maguo, if you really believe that Penn and Duke are better than MIT and Stanford and that Washington University is better than Cornell and Chicago and that Cal and Michigan are really ranked out of the top 20, suit yourself. It is clear that USNWR and the general CC student public share your point of view. I honestly hope you get into Duke or Cornell so you do not have to suffer the indignity of coming to Michigan. Oh the shame! hehe</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong. I have extreme respect for the institution, but not enough to place it in the top ten. This is why I'm on this board; to learn more about the college.</p>