<p>“Purely in terms of academic quality, I’d say top publics are every bit as good as pretty much any college in the country.”</p>
<p>This is what PA scores are basically rating. The above remark is what I am talking about everytime I discuss peer schools.</p>
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Thank you. You just showed the world the depth of your ability to argue intellectually and on point.</p>
<p>Well considering that the USNWR wastes 1/4 of it’s rating system on PA scores does make it seem to me that they are by far the most important numbers that the USNWR produces. It seems to me that someone must think pretty highly of the quality of the survey there.</p>
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<p>Yes, the people at USNWR that make all that money selling the issue. Although I do like that you used the word “wastes”. Freudian slip?</p>
<p>So just because someone comes up with a formula, that makes it right? That’s it, we shouldn’t question the correctness of the assumptions or methodology? Where did you go to school again?</p>
<p>I think practically anyone can see how your statement incorporating Tulane was completely ad hominem, and how intellectually weak the above statement is. Go ahead and make whatever barbed comment you desire, you have proven you cannot defend your argument in any real way.</p>
<p>No, it was not a slip of any kind. It was a poor attempt at sarcasm that should have been put in quotations.</p>
<p>Some of the so called “objective numbers” that the USNWR uses to evaluate schools have also been known to be manipulated, particularly by certain private universities to up their rankings. Are they really much more reliable that the collective opinions of thousands of academicians?</p>
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Well then, you inadvertently got it right. Congrats.</p>
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Probably not. I never argued that. In fact I have argued many times that the entire USNWR sham is just that. A complete waste that misleads thousands. You won’t believe me, but Tulane could shoot up to #15 and I would argue the same thing, because I have argued it from a scientific and logical reasoning position. I won’t disagree that such an event wouldn’t be good for the school, most likely, but it would do it good for the wrong reason.</p>
<p>I never stated that the PA was a flawless assertation of the true quality of a school. I have always stated that it is a reflection, by those who are in the position to know, of which schools are PEERS in distinguished academic programs. We disagree about the quality of the survey and it’s results. Personally, I think it is reflective of which are the top schools in this country and you don’t. To each his own.</p>
<p>Then why not just say that in the first place instead of resorting to baseless, childish attacks and non-arguments?</p>
<p>I would still like to know how these people are in “the position to know” for the undergrad level experience. For research (grad school) it is easier. Papers published, awards given, professional conferences. I cannot imagine how most of these people possibly have a clue as to the quality of undergrad life at these same schools, other than the handful they have personally been associated with.</p>
<p>In any case, the whole thing is trying to measure the unmeasurable. Define “top”. Define “best”. Whatever definition you come up with won’t be top or best for the majority of students looking to go to college. It makes no sense. This isn’t major league sports, where the best can be defined by wins and losses. It is an entirely different thing.</p>
<p>Fallen,
I think you make a good point about the difficulty of defining “best” and “top.” Some, like rjk, will take a single data point (PA score), point to it as the proper arbiter of which schools are “best” or “top” and trumpet its results til the cows come home. Not exactly a profile in high quality critical thinking. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>For my part, I have tried to identify the factors that IMO most heavily impact the undergraduate educational environment:</p>
<ol>
<li> Quality of Peers</li>
<li> Size of Classroom</li>
<li> Quality of Instruction</li>
<li> Depth of Financial Resources and Willingness to Spend on Undergrads<br></li>
</ol>
<p>Others may wish to add other factors (eg, research prominence) and certainly there are non-academic factors that will often influence a college choice (size, role of athletics, social life including Greek life, location, weather, etc). But these are individual choices while the data points that I focus on are close to universally preferred. </p>
<p>rjk,
FYI-presenting a well-reasoned argument that there are dozens colleges superior in their undergraduate offering than your U Michigan does not mean that I attended Ohio State. I comment positively on many schools all across the country and have many favorites. I admit to being positive on Ohio State’s prospects since the arrival of Gordon Gee. He has proven to be a very happy tonic for other major universities, including Brown and Vanderbilt.</p>
<p>Wow fallenchemist…Can I bow down to you? You just tamed rjkofnovi, one of the most aggressive CCer here.
Why are you so awesome? 
</p>
<p>
If you read my long post, I did acknowledge that UMich and Berkeley were peers of Ivies.
I actually believe HYPSM are NOT superior to lower Ivies, Duke, Caltech, and Berkeley/UMich in academics or research or teaching or sports. I for one believe HYPSM is considered “better” because of their large endowment, the excellent alumni they produced, and their prestige. That’s really all I believe HYPSM is superior to the Lower Ivy Plus universities. But then again, I’m sure you’ll get “wow’s” from people who have attended Brown, Caltech, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Duke, UChicago, and UPenn. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>@rjkofnovi: The reason why I exclude Berkeley, UMich, and UVA for that matter is because they’re public schools…and I really don’t know I just don’t really group them with the Lower Ivy Plus universities.
They’re awesome and obviously one of the top universities in America. But they’re different. So I personally know them as the Top 3 public schools in America.</p>
<p>John117 - Wow, congrats on Cal Tech in the fall. I have been on the campus 3 times, it is wonderful. Has a couple of smart people there too. Best of luck to you there.</p>
<p>LOL. I do have somewhat of a life. I would not say I was tamed so much, more that I had some errands to run and I wanted to end the conversation earlier. As I stated earlier, I do agree with some of fallenchemist’s points.</p>
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What in the world are you talking about? You’re totally misinterpreting what I’m saying and it’s clear you’ve been out of college for a LONG time. The pressure to pursue a handful of careers is self-imposed by individuals after they see most of their closest friends pursue a certain career path. In reality, no one at Duke or anywhere else cares what you really want to do with your life. In fact, kids who do something creative and out of the box get praise from peers/faculty and often draw the interest of others. However, there is a natural tendency for students at elite schools to want a pursue a certain set of niche professions because of money, prestige, status, parents, validation, etc. etc. The powerful effect of this can’t be denied and with the economy in doldrums, people are less willing to try something different.</p>
<p>[Senior</a> Survey 2010 | The Harvard Crimson](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2010/5/25/percent-year-seniors-class/]Senior”>Senior Survey 2010 | News | The Harvard Crimson)
About a third of Harvard grads go into the “dreaded” finance/consulting fields that you so despise. Why don’t you pick on Harvard too for fostering a culture where students chase money and power?</p>
<p>My point is that no one at schools like Dartmouth, Duke, Northwestern, etc. categorizes individuals based on a certain academic program they are enrolled in. At Penn, Whartonites seem to rule the roost and they definitely like to make it known that they are “separate” from the rest of the student body.</p>
<p>Who called Penn a “non-elite” school? Stop putting words in my mouth.</p>
<p>what about University of Washington? I cant find rankings but I know it’s not i ranked in the top ten. People tell me it’s a good engineering school, but how good? Compared to top schools like University of Mich or university of Illinois how successful are the students at finding top jobs?</p>
<p>You need to start your inquiry as a new thread.</p>