How hard is it to get into Social Work programs?

Graduate School
21

<p>Nodisrespect,</p>

<p>I am not taking offense. I never said MSW is worthless, please reread, I said, it is NOT economically worthless (opposite of what you say I said). I did say worst, but that is entirely subjective, one subjective comment in a lengthy post. I clearly understand you want to go into advocacy (I emphasize again and again that I have read your post 4).</p>

<p>Now to nomenclature. You unfortunately seem clueless. You say "you cannot be a psychiatrist with out a PhD". Yes you can and indeed you must. Psychiatrists are MDs who get a medical degree and then go into residency training in psychiatry. Some may earn a research PhD in which case they are MD-PhDs. Both degrees are awarded at the same time, occasionally the MD is given first, but it is always styled MD. PhD. since the PhD is the higher degree since it is the research degree.</p>

<p>The PhD is the psychologist, not the psychiatrist. One can get a psych PhD in a no of subject areas, like social psych, for example, but here we are talking about clinical programs. The PhD is generically called a therapist if the PhD is clinical/counseling (not social psych for example). The psychiatrist is also loosely and generically styled a therapist, as in who is your therapist, a question asked of someone who says she is in therapy as opposed to the question , who is your PCP asked of someone with a medical condition that is not psychiatric as in who is your primary care provider. So, psychologists, psychiatrists are both therapists. The Psy D is also a therapist. The MSW who practices in a clinical area is also called a therapist as is a counselor. The title therapist is not legally protected.</p>

<p>Your statement that you wanted to enter a PhD program to be a psychiatrist should end our conversation since you seem utterly lost. </p>

<p>To go from wanting to enter a clinical program, as in some kind of PhD, then finding out it is too tough and wanting advocacy MSW with the belief that MSW (clinical track) is not therapist but high school guidance, etc has all the hallmarks of someone thoroughly confused. I was trying to say you can be a therapist, yes you can, with an MSW but may not be well trained, which was my point earlier about the MSWs I work with. This was not to complain about my workforce or show off my credentials, but to reassure you that you can be a therapist without a PhD, that if that is what you want you can do it with a clinical track MSW, but you may have to get additional study on your own since the training is poor. But if you want advocacy go for it but please don't abuse me when you are ignorant of the field.</p>

22

<p>Sorry, I didn't see your last question in post 20.</p>

<p>In practice, the MSW, the PhD and the MD and the psyD all practise psychotherapy, yes. let me take my unit. I hold a PhD, I supervise two PsyDs who also do therapy and psych testing. I supervise 4 MDs, all do medication management, some of them do some therapy, brief work, they are variously called therapists (although their "therapy" is different from what the PhDs and MSWs do) or psychopharmacologists when they strictly do med monitoring. The 6 MSWs I supervise all do therapy, yes they are therapists, and in fact all do more therapy than anyone else, since the MDs prescribe more, the PhD and PsyD do MMPI and neuropsych assessment. We also have MA level counselors, unlicensed, who are also called therapists and some BAs in psych who do some psych tech work and are called clinicians. The nomenclature can be tricky.</p>

<p>The paths are different: to be a psychiatrist, remember, MD. To be a psychologist, PhD or psyD. All 3 are therapists. And then you can practise alongside the three as a therapist with MSW. You will be paid less but there will be more of you. programs are no longer hiring PhDs or MDs as much, they are being replaced by MSWs and Nurse practitioners, the APRNS. Hope this helps.</p>

23

<p>Please stop talking to me. You have offered nothing of value in this thread and have, in fact, muddied the issue with your blanket terms and insistence on a small issue in what is in fact a larger spectrum. I did not ask for information about "therapists", whatever you take that term to mean. I asked a very specific question about SOCIAL WORK, specifically clarified as the ADVOCACY AND LEADERSHIP specialization, and you came in here with your nonsense complaints and grievances about a totally unrelated area. You are trying to make out that all jobs in psychotherapy amount to the same thing regardless of degree and that is simply NOT TRUE.</p>

<p>WHICH IS NOT EVEN THE ISSUE AT HAND.</p>

<p>Whether or not I once aspired to get a phd is irrelevant.</p>

<p>It is not the question I asked.</p>

<p>It is not relevant to my current career goals.</p>

<p>It has no bearing on the program I am trying to enter.</p>

<p>It is not related to the career I intend to pursue.</p>

<p>It was a comment made in passing of no consequence to my specific question regarding social work programs.</p>

<p>I have no interest in clinical psychiatry.</p>

<p>I have no interest in obtaining an MD.</p>

<p>I have no interest in being a "therapist," in the MSW counselor version or otherwise.</p>

<p>Maybe I was unclear in my initial post. Tenisgh certainly thought so, therefore I made a clarification. Tenisgh then realized I was asking about something else - why can't you?</p>

<p>At this point, you are just badgering me about bs that has nothing to do with what I'm asking. Jesus Christ. I pointed out that you were mistaken in the career path I am choosing to take. You acknowledged this, AND CONTINUED to pounce on this one IRRELEVANT area. I mentioned one thing, once, just to point out it was not what I was talking about! And you keep taking this as evidence that it is, in fact, what I want to do with my life and it, as I have now said four times, IS NOT. An initial interest in one path is simply not the same thing as having chosen the path one is hoping to undertake. This is like having a conversation with a very petulant teenager.</p>

<p>Thank you for all your comments about those that practice psychotherapy. Now, if you have any insight on schools of social work that are NOT in the clinical track and/or with the intentions to practice psychotherapy, please offer them now. Otherwise, I have no further comments to you. Maybe it's easy to get into clinical track social work programs. THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M ASKING. How easy is it to get into ADVOCACY PROGRAMS in social work? Now if you can answer that, I would be much glad to hear it. Whether or not MSW therapists are bs jobs with poorly qualified workers is rude and uncalled for, and also COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.</p>

24

<p>Nodisrespect, your post 20 asked a clinical question, hence my response. I have been trying to keep my cool but permit me to say you have been extraordinarily offensive.</p>

<p>Now to the other tracks: the tracks that deal with poverty, justice, etc, otherwise labeled advocacy/leadership are easier to get into. Why so, you may ask? Again I have to introduce the clinical parallel. In these tracks you need to be employed by someone to make a living. In the clinical track, after getting supervised hours, you can practise independently as a licensed social worker. Hence, the track leading to a license is often more difficult to get into, like clinical psychology is more difficult to get into than social or personality.</p>

<p>There are in general fewer jobs in the advocacy area. Also for these jobs any formal degree is not required. I work with several advocacy people in the local mayor's office, only one has an MSW in admin social work, the others came up through experience (none has MPA either). In the leadership areas what you have done, that is, actual experience in successful community projects is more important than specific degree; due to legal requirements, clinical programs are more demanding, hence more difficult to get into. In sum, advocacy track is easier to get into.</p>

25

<p>as someone who currently attends uiuc and has experience with the school of social work, i personally do not think it is terribly difficult to get in. i worked with a girl who graduated with a 2.75 gpa (from uiuc) in psychology, worked as a sass worker for several years and did other volunteer work, and had no problem getting in. i know that most social work programs really focus on volunteer and paid experience as an indication of an applicant's dedication to the field, rather than gpa. social work, as im sure you know, requires more heart and dedication than book smarts...although book smarts are definitely a plus and will help you excel in the field. uiuc is ranked in the top 20 social work grad schools in the nation, im sure that counts for something, right? :)</p>

26

<p>In some key ways I agree with the distinctions ramaswami is making. </p>

<p>And nodisrespect is perhaps a bit green with the lingo of clinical degree. </p>

<p>With an MSW degree, and it's basic clinical licensure, one can practice clinical therapy (or let's call it counselling)... then with a certain number of hours under someone else's full fledged practice, the LMSW can take a clinical licensing exam to become an LCMSW. When one is an LCMSW, one can start a private practice and do medical billing/insurance reimbursement. Each state has slightly different laws, requirements, and letters after the name... some much more demanding of clinical proficiency than others, but this is one of the aspects of the MSW degree that perhaps makes it versatile.</p>

<p>Many many many MSW folks, with basic state licensure, do agency work, as administrators or therapist/counsellors without ever pursuing the advanced license. Some of these folks are good... and well, some are not... social services have a pretty high burn out rate, no? As with being an educator, there can easily be a dulling down, or complacency that settles in over people who maybe went into it for good reasons, but it's tiring and somewhat thankless, yes?</p>

<p>I think the best MSW therapists are those that approach the mirror and the client with the clear understanding and assertion that they are not there to hand out a clinical diagnosis... they are there to listen, to give (standardized) life coaching, and perhaps give individuals some personal insight - maybe even accountability, for their problems. Further, a good MSW, whether in a therapy setting, with a private agency, or with public agencies, will have the training to maintain professional boundaries and recommend medical/clinical help and intervention should said MSW therapist perceive the client needs a medical, psychological, or neurological diagnosis. And the MSW clinical programs that are reputable, perhaps do the best job of putting a working knowledge of the clinical theories/diagnoses into the heads of students. This is why MSW's should seek the highest licensing possible - as a self check at the very least.</p>

<p>I think that MSW candidates and graduates do (and should) rely on, and respect the clinical MD's and PhD's, for their science and analysis. Then, operate as a licensed street team of sorts for mental health and life skills. Maybe folks with a bit of history that isn't of intellectual privilege, can be good listeners... and maybe also have the natural and necessary bedside manner to communicate with clients in a way that many MD's and PhD's might find more difficult or boring.(?) </p>

<p>If you want to get the MSW degree, think about the kind of community you want to work in... go to a school that is in that kind of setting, has that kind of specialty, or do some research into the scholarly research/publishing in your field of interest... go where those folks are professors...</p>

<p>It's versatile also, because you have leverage (perhaps too much) as to how professionally you operate.</p>

27

<p>tesstessconfess, you do realize you can pursue an MSW in a mezzo/macro field?</p>

<p>While most people pursue an MSW for a clinical career, there is a growing movement for MSW concentrations in administration, policy, planning and community organization.</p>

28

<p>i do indeed. I thought my post was already too long to get into generalist practice talk... I think the variety of specialties one can pursue at CUSSW are amazing. I am accepted there for the clinical program, but have deferred for a year. an acquaintance of mine at Columbia with a dual degree (UCLA undergrad in psych and international relations) did the generalist practice track at CUSSW, and managed to specialize in something as specific as at-risk-gay-urban-youth... but she says she regrets not doing the clinical track (while maintaining that specialty focus). In her opinion, there was too much clinical training missing from the generalist track, and she also felt that with the clinical focus she would have been equally trained in her specialty area to perform in the generalist setting, just better prepared with a more clinical background.</p>

<p>I have applied elsewhere in the northeast to see what i can come up with to avoid the high price tag of CUSSW. NYC would be too hard for my family.</p>

<p>I have not found any concrete acceptance stats for the ranking SW schools, but I think it's a pretty safe bet that every joe shmoe with an inkling toward SW is not going to apply to the more "elite" schools... so even if acceptance rates are high, one is likely to find peers with perhaps a bit more than just a pulse. Professional school is professional school, but faculty and facility matter...and access to good field placements. I think the important part is to find a program that inspires one to become what one wants to be, and feel proud and invigorated by it so as not to burn out in 6 minutes... find out who is doing what research at what school, what they are publishing, etc etc. </p>

<p>the big reason I really wanted CUSSW was for the breadth of possibilities for specializing- whether generalist or clinical. You can do both tracks there..I think you have to sacrifice a little on the specializing, or take some summer classes. i plan to spend at least 10 to 15 years working in a generalist setting with the aging. I also plan on getting clinical licensure as I do it. I really like the idea of research, so who knows. If I were 22 and this sure about it all, i might do a more science/clinical psychology all the way research degree, but i am older and have a family and practical considerations.</p>

29

<p>it seems to me that a focus on leadership and advocacy, from a generalist perspective, by it's very nature must include some clinical training. if leading humans and advocating for humans, one needs to be trained in the formal language of how humans develop and function or fail to function. even the most generalist practice program will have a component of human behavior and developmental theory... right?</p>

<p>that was what i was reading from ramaswami... it seems that nodisrespect, though clearly earnest, needs to do a bit more research or talking to people in the field.</p>

30

<p>Why not consider Michigan? It might be OOS tuition for you, so research carefully. You don't necessarily have to go to Columbia for social work. I think Michigan's Social Work program is so underrated among social circles (even though U.S. News has it ranked its #1-2 program for over a decade now).</p>

31

<p>This probably has no bearing on the discussion of SW but I was a little disturbed by ramaswami's patronizing remarks about Ed and Divinity programs. </p>

<p>As someone who works closely with Harvard's Div school, I am well aware of the rigorous admissions process. Yes, they have a tendency to look beyond the numbers, but that is more than made up for by other factors, such as pulpit experience (which is very difficult to come by in some without formal ministerial training), community engagement and advocacy, and of course, a demonstrated calling to ministry (how do you do that?!) </p>

<p>RE: Ed programs- according to a professor at Harvard, their Ms. Ed program has a 15% admittance rate. That is just slightly higher than HBS's!</p>

32

<p>yeah... i think the disconnect with that is the word credibility... it's loaded with subjective perspective. </p>

<p>michigan would be fantastic if it moved to western mass... for that matter, so would Columbia.</p>

33

<p>Hi, I am doing a presentation on the topic of an MSW. I am also going to pursue a MSW in about a year. I had a clarifying question- MSW w/ micro focus, MSW w/ macro focus, and MSW w/ a clinical focus are all separate emphasis correct? Clinical is different than the micro or macro, I just want to make sure I am grouping these from each other and clinical isn't really inside micro or macro emphasis. Can anyone help me out please??</p>

34

<p>I always thought micro MSW = clinical MSW. They are both direct practice concentrations, working with individuals.</p>

<p>Macro practice (also known as community practice) encompasses planning, policy analysis, and administration. You work with organizations and communities.</p>

<p>There is a mezzo practice. It's in the middle, working with groups and families.</p>

<p>Altogether, there are three areas: **micro<a href="working%20with%20individuals">/b</a>, **mezzo<a href="working%20with%20groups%20and%20families">/b</a>, and **macro<a href="working%20with%20organizations%20and%20communities">/b</a> social work.</p>

<p>Another thing I noticed is that a background in psychology is good for clinical practice whereas a background in sociology is good for community practice.</p>

<p>Gee, maybe I should go back to school in social work. ;)</p>

35

<p>I would like to elicit an opinion guys and gals about the possibility of getting a BSW then M.S. Vocational Rehabilitation Counseling and Doctorate in (insert whatever here). I am torn between the BSW or a B.A. in Human Services as well as a Bachelor in Psych. I believe any (including Speech Pathology) would get me into the Master’s for Voc. Rehab, but BSW would open more doors, correct?</p>

<p>Thanks in advance for sharing your experience educationally and professionally.</p>

36

<p>Greetings Thread,</p>

<p>I am not sure if anyone is still reading this, but I wanted to add my perspective, just in case. I was going to apply to doctoral programs in psychology, but was advised not to by a Psychologist friend. He convinced me that the education and cost, in time and money, simply are not worth it. Respectfully, unless one wants to be a researcher or professor, getting a doctorate in psychology is ill advised. </p>

<p>First, reimbursement rates for PhDs are minimally higher than is given to LCSWs ($5-$10 per session) and, when the opportunity cost of 7-10 years of teaching undergraduates and slaving over other peoples’ research in graduate school are factored in (while I was working/gaining marketable skills in the real world), the doctorate in psychology is a liability.</p>

<p>Secondly, if we are going to discuss watered-down degrees, lets be totally honest! There are institutes, with much lower standards than the MSW programs mentioned here, that grant PhDs and PsyDs—without the precious GRE requirement! These are degree mills with no credible standards and “low residency” requirements, which means very little “hands on” training in therapeutic techniques. </p>

<p>** One example: [The</a> Institute of Transpersonal Psychology: Admissions: FAQ: Admissions](<a href=“http://www.itp.edu/admissions/faq/admissions.php#7]The”>http://www.itp.edu/admissions/faq/admissions.php#7) </p>

<p>Lastly, the PhD is a research degree, with varying levels of practical, clinical training provided to students (depending upon the university). The PsyD was created because psychologists, themselves, felt that they were taught more research/teaching skills than therapists need, but were lacking therapeutic techniques. Hence, the “practice” psychology degree, the PsyD, was born. It is unfair to hold the MSW to the PhD standard because, in most cases, they suit different needs. How many MSWs are attempting to conduct research or teach graduate courses?</p>

<p>Moral of the story: Regardless of your degree, PhD or MSW, you are going to be forced to develop new skills the further up the ladder you go. Want be a strong mental health professional? You will need at least a graduate degree and 3-5 years of post-graduate, one-on-one supervision with a highly trained, senior practitioner. </p>

<p>Regards,
SWSmartie</p>

37

<p>I have to agree with your posts, it is an uncomfortable truth, but most MSW’s are not really trained to be therapists. I have been to many therapists over the years, and I would venture to say that many of the MSW’s have been negligent and bordering on malpractice, with their advice. There is no substitute for training and education. As you said, the insurance companies favor them, because they are cheaper. You get what you pay for. Believe me, I would not go back to an MSW for treatment.</p>

38

<p>Thank you nodisrespect for creating this thread! I know I am a bit late, but I have been busy acing classes such as General Organic Chemistry II, Biochemistry, and many other advanced undergraduate courses to suppliment my B.S. in Psychology w/ a 4.0 GPA. Yep, I can enter any graduate program of my choice, and I CHOOSE to get a Master of Social Work. Why you ask? Because it just feels right. Please, pretty please, hear me clearly when I say this… There are very smart and very qualified people graduating MSW programs, regardless of admittance latitude. Haters beware; it’s bad for your health :). Have a nice day.</p>

39

<p>Ramaswani
Do your staff of social workers know how low you speak of them? I am sure you will keep your identity hidden or you would lose your job for making such mean spitited remarks about your staff and millions of oher people in the world who are trying to make a difference by becoming social workers. You have no integrity because you write on here something you would never say in person! You are an elitist snob; you may have a high paying job and have obtained a “higher” degree but you are truly a vicious nasty person full of hatred and a mean spirit. You say many of the MSW’s are not bright and have mental problems. Well, I have known MDs who have mental problems and who do a horrible job at being doctors. I have kown psychiatrists and PHDs who are truly disturbed (and you appear to be one of them)Your elitist dismissal of an entire field because they do not take the GRE shows your snobbiness, your arrogance and bigoted ignorance. May God bless your cursed soul!</p>

40

<p>Haha, no need to be so harsh, kevinmcd. It was a little uncalled for ramaswani to use his/her answer to bash social workers, but I’ll be forgiving about it because his/her opinion seems to be based on a combination of his/her personal experiences, assuming society’s generalizations about certain fields, and expressing frustrations about an MSW program that is not flawless (hopefully as someone who wants his/her clients to receive the best care). Worst-case scenario: he/she feels some type of way about being grouped with MSW-pseudo-therapists as someone who invested a lot of time and money into that PhD. In any case, he/she obviously did not dissuade anyone interested in or passionate about the field. Maybe many can get in, but I have an immense amount of respect for social workers, because it’s a terribly demanding field and the need is great.</p>

<p>Besides, that whole argument happened five years ago. :D</p>