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<p>Such middle class kid has no business in applying to any need based aid school, because there is no way a kid like that would be able to get any aid from such school, period. Whether it’s ED or RD, he/she would have to pay full fare, therefore there would be no out for such kid if applied ED.</p>
<p>“However, what people here seem to be adamant about is that there are no NEGATIVE repercussions stemming from declining an ED admission.”</p>
<p>What people are saying is that is no negative repercussion stemming from declining an ED admission <em>due to inability to pay.</em> If you leave that part out then you twist the whole point.</p>
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I’m with Xiggi on this one … I certainly am not any kind of insider … but my understanding is virtually no school will force you to attend … but that many of the top schools do share their ED acceptance lists and that the other top schools typically honor those commitments. So a family can decide they don’t like Columbia’s FA package that came with the ED acceptance … but that student is likely to have issues trying to get accepted to another IVY or many other elite schools who will honor Columbia’s ED acceptance. This makes sense to me because the schools can either … 1) fight over one student … 2) show mutual respect for each other’s ED programs and cut down on the competition between them. So a kid who rejects Columbia’s ED FA package will have lots of other options (local state U for example) but likely not some of the elite schools. The trick is guessing who knows whose list … if I were a student applying to an IVY ED and then turning it down then I’d guess the other IVYies and the NESCAC schools would be a tough route … I would guess geographic seperation probably increases the odds of getting into another elite school after rejecting an ED acceptance.</p>
<p>But here we go once again. “Inability to pay” has been translated to a cavalier “doesn’t like it.”</p>
<p>The question is can a student be released from an ED agreement if the FA award does not make it possible for them to attend. The answer is yes.</p>
<p>“So a kid who rejects Columbia’s ED FA package will have lots of other options (local state U for example) but likely not some of the elite schools.”</p>
<p>If the Ivies offer near-uniform FA packages, the point is moot; the kid can’t afford any of them.</p>
<p>A kid who had to turn down an Ivy solely on financial grounds may be extremely attractive to a very selective school (which therefore offers more money) that is not elite. Try to imagine that such a school won’t offer the kid an RD spot solely because the Ivy ED FA package did not allow attendance.</p>
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<p>No, Rent, it is YOU who is twisting the whole point. </p>
<p>Your assumption is that the commitment can SIMPLY be waived by a unilateral decision by the applicant that the financial aid is not adequate, and that this is automatic. If that were the case, are there any student who are bound by an ED successful application? </p>
<p>Please take a look at the comprehensive post of Sybbie regarding the “adequacy” of the financial aid package at Columbia. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that it is entirely possible for a school to defend its position that the student is provided sufficient need based help all the while the parents/student might think that the EFC interpretation is one-sided. In that case, a school might not be so willing to GRANT the release, or not immediately and without conditions.</p>
<p>As stated earlier, one of such conditions could be similar to the posts of Columbia on its site, or similar to what Vossron wrote.</p>
<p>The EFC formulas don’t take into account bad financial decisions by parents. The schools are calculating what families should be able to afford, not what they can afford; that’s why families are given the decision power. Schools simply do not stand in the way; if they did, they’d just later expel the student for non-payment of the school-calculated EFC.</p>
<p>Maybe this is just a twisted academic argument about what the words should mean; there is no practical issue. The kid can’t afford a similar FA offer no matter from which school it comes.</p>
<p>It is not a good idea to apply ED if FA is needed.</p>
<p>“It is not a good idea to apply ED if FA is needed.”</p>
<p>I disagree, a better suggestion would be not to apply ED if you are not comfortable with paying the estimated EFC that is properly researched.</p>
<p>Plus, applying ED needing FA is appropriate only to the one dream school above all others, where you will attend if there is any way to make it work financially. If you want to compare FA offers, don’t apply ED.</p>
<p>I think applying ED when you have financial need can be a very good idea, depending on the school to which you apply.</p>
<p>That’s one reason why we did it.</p>
<p>When we were considering this several years ago, I read over and over and over on CC that your should NEVER apply ED when you need financial aid. But when I looked at the reality of the ED agreement, the aid provided by schools that meet full need w/o loans, and our own situation… the logic just didn’t track. In fact quite a few students and parents sent me private messages sharing their own positive experience with it because they didn’t want to get involved in conversations like this.</p>
<p>People need to think for themselves and figure out how ED applies to their situation. It’s not rocket science. Sometimes it doesn’t make sense to do so. Sometimes it does.</p>
<p>First, I don’t agree with the mantra often quoted about not applying ED if you need FA … my version would be something like this … research the typical FA from the school compared to calculated EFCs and if you can live with something in that neighborhood than ED might work fine for your family</p>
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Without divulging identities would you please share some of the info shared … did folks tell you about backing out of Columbia ED and ending up at another elite school? or at other less elite options?</p>
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<p>And the EFC and school formulas should NOT take bad financial decisions into account. </p>
<p>In my opinion, a family that allows their kiddo to apply ED KNOWS the financial implications…after all, the parents also have to sign that ED agreement. If the family is making bad financial decisions…that is NOT NOT NOT the fault of the school which calculates financial need based on formulas that use income and assets. If the family can’t manage their assets, that is a FAMILY issue, not a school one. The schools making ED financial aid awards that MEET NEED based on the calculations the school makes should not have to consider whether a family takes expensive vacations, charges too much on credit, mismanages their money. That is a family issue. </p>
<p>In my opinion, these folks should not be applying ED and be expecting to get the benefit of an early admission when they possibly will not be able to pay the bills because they are mismanaging their income/assets.</p>
<p>Xiggi: “No, Rent, it is YOU who is twisting the whole point.”</p>
<p>What I’m saying is just what the ED agreement says and what ED colleges say: If a student is not able to afford to attend based on the FA offered they can be released from the ED agreement.</p>
<p>3togo: “First, I don’t agree with the mantra often quoted about not applying ED if you need FA … my version would be something like this … research the typical FA from the school compared to calculated EFCs and if you can live with something in that neighborhood than ED might work fine for your family”</p>
<p>Yeah, people can think this through according to their own circumstances. Different people have different factors to consider and may well come to different conclusions.</p>
<p>“Without divulging identities would you please share some of the info shared … did folks tell you about backing out of Columbia ED and ending up at another elite school? or at other less elite options?”</p>
<p>I don’t know of anyone who had an experience with Columbia. All the people that contacted me had applied to need-based only schools that meet full need with either no loans or published loan caps that were acceptable to them. All received sufficient aid to attend, although 2 had to go to the FA office and negotiate more aid before they could accept the ED offer. Both got that additional aid.</p>
<p>thumper, I bet we’re all in violent agreement. 
I think we’re just sorting out what happens when it does happen.</p>
<p>Moreover, it happens to good responsible folks too. Sometimes they lose their jobs, or gotten sick, or just sometimes make simple calculation or estimation mistake or unclear about certain rules. There will always be people that are looking to game the system but I can’t imagine that is a sizable chunk of ED applicants. Let’s not lump everyone into one bucket.</p>
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<p>People who have been here a long time have learned to understand the frailty of absolutes. When it comes to financial aid, for many middle-class families, it is very difficult to predict the results of the Profile (FAFSA is a lot easier for most people.) On the other hand, there are plenty of applicants who have a ZERO EFC or easily qualify for Pell or SEOG grants. Many of those students should NOT fear applying ED , and this despite needing the maximum available financial aid. </p>
<p>In so many words, needing financial aid is not incompatible with the ED. Your right to “shop” around is drastically limited. This is why some take a shortcut on CC when advising to stay away from ED if needing finaid.</p>
<p>On a last note, it is good to see how program such as Questbridge have helped many students navigating the arcane waters of early decisions and, in fact, helped many working around the most limiting rules.</p>
<p>I agree, xiggi, but I will add that no one I have personally talked to (either in person or in PMs from here on CC) applied ED with a 0 EFC, and it still all worked out just fine.</p>
<p>It’s not like it only makes sense on the extreme edges of 0 EFC or needing no financial aid at all.</p>
<p>Where families need to compare offers, or for whatever reason cannot estimate what aid they may qualify for, or are looking for the best merit opportunites… then, yeah, probably not a great idea!</p>
<p>Should a student from a family like that apply ED and not be able to afford to attend, I still haven’t heard any convincing evidence that they would be given a hard time or somehow punished with regard to their RD applications.</p>
<p>Sybbie posted this quote from Columbia: “All the Ivy institutions will honor any required commitment to matriculate which has been made to another college under this plan.”</p>
<p>But still, this is referring to a student has not gotten released from the ED agreement. </p>
<p>I just don’t see any evidence that colleges are trying to make this difficult for students and families. In fact, if they were unyielding in this situation it would set them up to look even more like they were further priviledging the privileged with their ED program. I can’t think of a college that would get within 100 yards of that.</p>
<p>I called a very nice university to inquire what is our EFC for an ED acceptance. They asked a few financial questions and said your EFC is approximately X to Y dollars. Thus, just call the schools financial aid office and ask.</p>
<p>Paul,</p>
<p>You are correct that most schools will give you an early read and estimate what your EFC will be if you request it. They willl not set it in stone because the estimate is as only as good as the information given. However, the estimate does give the family a jumping off point for knowing if they are going to financially be able to swing it. </p>
<p>As others have mentioned the one disadvantage you lose is your ability to compare offers. I can say from experience in my house that FA packages can vary drastically even at “no loan schools.” As I had posted before, in my house there was a $10,000-12,000 gap in the 7 “elite” schools that my D was accepted to and we sent the same information to all schools. There were differences in student contributions, work study, and we had 7 different EFCs.</p>
<p>For the most part, If one does their due diligence, (run their numbers through the FA calculators using both the federal and institutional methodology) getting an early read, they should have some idea of what they can or cannot financially swing. I think the biggest caveat whether you apply ED, is making the most informed decsion especially where the $$ is concerned.</p>