How hard is to get get into a top tier grad school if...

Graduate School
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<p>I'm currently a junior in high school getting ready to start filling out college apps next year (finally i'm gonna be a senior!). anyways with all the worry and stuff a lot of junior have about college acceptances one of my teachers was telling me it doesn't matter too much where you go to get your undergrad degree because all universities are gonna basically teach you the same stuff. however, he said where you go to grad school is EXTREMELY important. (I know I'm probably saying stuff that everyone on this board already knows but i'm just giving background to my question).</p>

<p>So, my question is how hard would it be for a kid who goes to a third-tier national university (according to us news list) to get into a good grad school? i mean exactly how well would the kid have had to have done at a third tier school to be considered for admissions into a top 20 grad school?</p>

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<p>What kind of grad school do you mean? Masters program? PhD? Or do you mean a professional degree? I suspect that for the professional degrees, the prestige of your undergrad matters more. For MS/MA or PhD, the caliber of your rec letters (and how well known the people who write them are) matter a lot more. </p>

<p>What kind of graduate school roughly are you interested in?</p>

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<p>depends on field of interest, and what degree you want. the grad school admission process is quite different from the undergrad process.</p>

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<p>hmm... calkidd i don't really know which type of degree i mean, i'm only a junior in high school so I don't know much about grad school... which degree would a chemistry major be going to grad school for? i think i want to know about PhD... if anyone on here can please try to explain to me the difference between different grad degrees it would be greatly appreciated.</p>

<p>also huskem55, which fields are generally the hardest to get into a good grad school for? which are the easiest? i'm guessing sciences are the hardest...</p>

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<p>shazilla- the most competitive programs to get into are clinical psych phd programs- schools generally take about 5 out of 400 applicants.
most masters programs are very easy to get into.</p>

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<p>To go from a third-tier university to a top 20 PhD program, you'd better be one of the top few of your class.</p>

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<p>It is true that more students from top undergrad schools go to top grad schools than students from lower-tier schools. People disagree regarding whether this is a true situation of value added by top schools, or whether the students at top schools are already so talented that where they went to undergrad has little effect.</p>

<p>Everybody has a story about their uncle who went to Podunk U for undergrad and then went to the top program in his field for grad school, but that obscures the real issue. It's not an all-or-none process -- some applicants from no-name schools will be admitted, but applicants from top schools are admitted at a higher rate. So if you go to a top school, you're not a lock, and if you go to a lower-tier school, you're not an automatic reject. It's nowhere close to that simple.</p>

<p>There are several possible explanations, as I see it -- students at top schools are surrounded by motivated people, and are therefore inspired to be motivated themselves; students at top schools have access to famous professors who can write very powerful letters of recommendation (if you have an effusive letter of rec from one of the top researchers in your field, that is your golden ticket); in the sciences, students at top schools often have more access to groundbreaking research projects; strong advising resources exist at some schools which may not exist at schools where most graduating students enter the workforce directly.</p>

<p>As im_blue says, if you go to a third-tier university, you had better be one of the top students in your class. Students from top-tier schools have a little more wiggle room -- they can get a bunch of B's and a few C's still be extremely competitive for top grad schools. If you want to come from a third-tier school, your GPA had better be really high, because there are plenty of other third-tier applicants with 4.0s.</p>

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<p>It really has no barring considering you do well in school and not just go through the motions to get your degree. Will it hurt you to go to a top knotch undergraduate school? No. It can only help, but if you do well in school, score well on your tests, get good recommendations, work/volunteer/get involved outside of school, and write a good essay...you'll be just as competitive a candidate as anyone else.</p>

<p>I went to a 3rd teir school and got into a good University for grad school. I knew people who got into Harvard and some other top schools as well - either via transfer or graduate school who've attended less than stellar undergraduate colleges.</p>

<p>Don't buy into the hype people will probably be trying to sell you.</p>

<p>Go to the best school you can afford/get into. But, even more importantly, go to the school you feel most comfortable attending. If you go to Harvard and hate it there...then I simply don't see the point of wasting your time and your parent's money going.</p>

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<p>thanks to everyone who has replied so far... </p>

<p>so if you are just in the top 10% of a graduating class at a third tier university that's not good enough? you have to be closer to like top 10 out of all the students?</p>

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<p>For a PhD program, I suspect you would want to be at least above 3.5 (maybe 3.8 from a third tier?); it never hurts to get great grades, but your potential as a scientist (hence, research experience and recs) is far more important. I agree with molliebat as far as the environment at top schools like MIT (and access to top researchers), although I would also point out that, especially at places with their own college of chemistry, the chemistry BS major is typically filled with very strong students. And there are many great researchers outside of places like Harvard and MIT (although the top schools try their best to steal these people from other universities). One option for students at third tier universities without much access to research is to apply for summer research programs at the big schools and to possibly take a year off after undergrad to work in one of those labs.</p>

<p>A MS in chemistry is typically geared toward working in industry as a high level technician or as an assistant to a staff scientist. With a PhD, you are looking at a very few (but increasingly growing number) of industry positions (especially in pharma) as staff scientist, and of course academia. With a chemistry BS/BA you also have the option of doing an interdisciplinary graduate degree like Bioengineering, Materials Science or Polymer Technology. A masters program focuses mostly on coursework with some research requirement, while for a PhD, you take some courses (and I think the trend in chemistry is to have students in PhD programs take as few courses as possible) and then work in a lab - typically a MS takes 1-2 years and a PhD 4-7 years.</p>

<p>Finally, if you do decide on a PhD, the person you work for is more important than the name of your school. And if you don't end up getting into the grad school you want, there is always the postdoc option later on.</p>

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<p>calkidd, which schools have their own college of chemistry? i never knew that some schools had that...</p>

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<p>So, what are the tiers usually defined to be? I'm a math major at the University of Washington - I wonder if anyone knows what tier this is usually considered to be?</p>

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<p>dr. bott, when most people talk about tiers on college confidential they are talking about the us news college rankings, the tier one rankings can be found here: <a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>university of washington is ranked #45, so you have nothing to worry about :)</p>

<p>i don't like to think that much about the us news rankings and often times disagree with them but to some kids if they don't get into a top 25 university it's like the end of the world</p>

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<p>"which degree would a chemistry major be going to grad school for?"</p>

<p>there are two types of masters offered by some schools and the PhD program offered at many places</p>

<p>one type of masters takes only 1 year and focuses your efforts on taking classes and working as a TA (teaching assistant), teaching classes and labs for the undergrads -- this prepares you for career in teaching but it is also a chance to stay in school one extra year if for some reason you feel you are not ready to apply to PhD programs at the beginning of your senior year (application process is Nov-Feb of senior year although some schools accept applications all the way into spring)</p>

<p>another type of masters program is 2 years -- you would have to take a few classes, work as a TA for some time, and produce a piece of work of quality that can be published -- then you defend this work in front of a few profs and they let you go with a masters degree -- this is the traditional masters which sets you for work in industry (or do teaching) -- chemistry masters are generally highly sought for because there is a lot of work spots for them</p>

<p>PhD programs are the toughest to get into but not as tough as for advanced degrees in some other fields -- average time to complete is 5.5 years -- in this time you have to produce a number of pieces of work of quality that can be published (so it is like completing many masters degrees) -- first year you take a few classes, work as a TA, choose a group to work for, and do some research -- second year you may work as TA and take one or two classes but you mainly focus on doing research -- at the end of 2nd year all schools have some sort of examination -- this examination consists of presenting your research that you have done up to date (to a group of 3-5 profs), and another presentation, the topic of which varies from school to school -- it may be a survey of some article during which profs will ask you various questions to check your knowledge of chemistry -- it may also be an independent proposal of research</p>

<p>generally, if you want to take a stab at chemistry grad school, you want a GPA at 3.0 or above, three good letters of rec, and work (hands-on) experience -- work experience can be obtained by going and volunteering for a prof or working for a company during summer or part-time during academic year (or preferably doing both, if you have time)</p>

<p>grad schools also tend to take applicants coming from a school with strong chemistry department -- if you go to such school, chances are that the people who will write you letters of rec will be more or less known in the field and therefore more trusted with their evaluation of you -- plus with a strong department in field, you probably took classes that prepared you well -- so it is not totally true that undergrad school does not matter for grad school in chemistry -- just the fact that you are top 10% of your class and you are coming from an ivy will not open all doors for you</p>

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<p>UC Berkeley has its own college of chemistry; I'm sure there must be others.</p>

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<p>I'd say that you don't need to go to a school with its own college of chemistry because, especially if you want to go to a smaller school, that's not going to be possible to find. Probably any good school with a strong chemistry DEPARTMENT would be fine. Sometimes being at a school with only a few majors in your discipline is a great advantage (where I'm coming from) as long as there are good facilities and enough classes offered.</p>

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<p>thanks for all the replies</p>

<p>can someone give me a list of undergrad schools that have a strong chemistry department? exclude ivies and top 25 schools, i don't have much of a shot of getting into those schools</p>

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<p>this is old information (from 1994) but NRC will post new info here in 2008, or so they say: <a href="http://www.phds.org/rankings/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.phds.org/rankings/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>If your stats aren't strong enough to get into a top 25 school, I strongly believe that the best alternative is to attend a school with a top graduate chemistry department. This is because you can engage in undergraduate research with faculty that are known in the field, which will be very significant when it comes time to secure letters of recommendation for graduate admissions, which can make or break you. The following schools would then fit this profile (keep in mind these are graduate rankings):</p>

<ol>
<li>University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign</li>
<li>University of Wisconsin - Madison</li>
<li>University of Texas - Austin</li>
<li>University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill</li>
<li>University of Michigan - Ann Arbor</li>
<li>Texas A&M University - College Station, University of California - Irvine, University of California - San Diego</li>
<li>Penn State University, Purdue University</li>
<li>Georgia Tech, Indiana University - Bloomington, Ohio State, University of Colorado - Boulder, University of Minnesota - Twin Cities, University of Washington</li>
<li>University of California - Santa Barbara</li>
<li>University of California - Davis, University of Florida, University of Pittsburgh, University of Utah</li>
<li>Iowa State, University of Arizona</li>
<li>Michigan State</li>
<li>Colorado State, Florida State, University of Maryland - College Park</li>
<li>Arizona State, NC State, University of California - Riverside, University of Georgia, University of Rochester</li>
<li>Rutgers - Newark, SUNY - Stony Brook, University of Iowa, UMass - Amherst, University of Oregon</li>
<li>SUNY - Buffalo, University of Delaware, University of Kansas, Wayne State</li>
<li>Case Western Reserve, University of Illinois - Chicago, Virginia Tech</li>
<li>Louisiana State - Baton Rouge, Oregon State, University of Missouri - Columbia, University of South Carolina</li>
<li>Syracuse, University of California - Santa Cruz, UConn, University of Tennessee - Knoxville, Washington State</li>
<li>Kansas State, RPI, Rutgers - New Brunswick, Texas Tech, University of Cincinnati, University of Houston</li>
</ol>

<p>I don't know what your stats are, but there are some hidden gems here that are relatively less selective but still have a top 50 department, such as Utah, Iowa State, Colorado State, Arizona State, Georgia, and UC Riverside.</p>

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<p>im_blue,</p>

<p>Kinda funny that you listed UMich-AA as a non-top 25.</p>

<p>Just saying.</p>