Harvard used to ask for 3 subject tests, dropped it two and now say if you can’t afford, then we are ok.
So irrespective of whether schools are capable of teaching the students, Harvard had demanded them.
I also contend that from what I have seen, if a kid can do well in subject tests, the kid does almost equally well in SAT.
From what I’ve read the SAT is highly correlated with IQ tests, so it seems like this is rehashing arguments that have already played out.
"Admissions is already subjective. Admissions say they look at the student within the context of their school’s academics. I’m not suggesting that admission turn to AP scores as “the” source. I am saying that the idea that the SATs are the only way to validate education is flawed. There are multiple ways to demonstrate “quality of classroom experience.”
And how do you propose that with 30,000 applications? You’re speaking from a homeschooler perspective. No one is saying that the SATs are perfect, everyone gets that rich kids do better (and can afford more test prep), and no one on this discussion is one of those blunt someone-who-gets-a-2390-is-so-much-smarter-than-someone-who-gets-a-2340 nonsense. We all know how to read these with mental “bands” around them - just like we’re all able to read the USNWR reports with mental “bands” around them instead of believing that #3>#4>#5 in any meaningful way.
But nonetheless, even squinting at them will provide some useful info, and some way to mentally classify kids.
^^Exactly.
Test scores are just one of ~6 factors in holistic admissions. They count a lot more for the privileged - and they should – and less for the underprivileged.
I always smile when I see a chance me post, from someone who attends ‘one of the most competitive schools in my state’ yet they have middlin’ test scores, including Subject Test scores. I’m sure adcoms think the same.
What information does it provide that say 6 AP classes with 5s and 2-3 SAT scores with 700+ that can’t be assessed in the same second glance? A list of scores is a list of scores. It does not take “evaluating” them. Seriously, it would take less time than superscoring.
Well, I’m not JHS but I don’t think he or anyone else on this board is arguing that the SATs are the only way “to validate education.”
But as I noted above, for those applicants who are NOT home schooled, i.e., the vast majority, the SAT provides a quick thumbnail sketch of their high school as well as the individual. In fact, I personally think the aggregate score for the high school is a more valid measure of its quality than SATs are of an individual.
Plenty of kids never take an AP or SAT II test. Admittedly, it was a long time ago, but I arrived at a top college having never HEARD of AP tests. While today that’s less likely, not every high school in the US offers AP courses and it isn’t that easy to register for and take them if yours doesn’t. And please don’t tell me that as a homeschooler you were easily able to figure that out–not all parents, even very caring parents, have the resources to do that.
The very fact that almost every high school in American has a registration code for the SAT and/or the ACT means that there is at least SOME data available to a college about each high school. Yep, the high school profile SHOULD do that, but it often doesn’t–and the worse the high school, in general, the worse the profile.
And, in some cases, 6 AP classes and 2-3 SAT II scores might be excellent–even though the candidate has a serious educational deficiency, especially in math. I’m lousy at math, but I could do everything else well. I think the colleges to which I applied were entitled to know I was strictly average in math.
But, you say, there are grades. If you go to a lousy high school, you might have Bs and even some As because your high school grade inflates and/or you’ve had lousy math teachers.
Oh, and it’s definitely not an IQ test–not even close.
Some years ago, and I can’t be bothered to look it up, the head of Harvard admissions said, essentially, SAT2s are more predictive of success and more useful for admissions, because they measure what a kid learns of a specific subject. A couple of years later, and perhaps with a different person in charge, the requirements for Harvard dropped the SAT2 altogether, because they were unfairly privileging the well-to-do. Both assessments may well be true.
Where I think people who hate the SATs go wrong is that they worry too much about the specific score: if a kid scores a 700 or an 800, he has shown a certain ability. Given that tests are studiable and so forth, a 700 might be the same as an 800; but a 700 is not the same as a 500. Even with studying, a 500 is not likely to get a 700, it seems to me. If a kid scores in a certain band, then we’ll look at his GPA and so forth; if a kid has a certain GPA with a certain rigor, then we’ll look at his SAT for confirmation. The studies that have been done on predictiveness of success of GPA vs. SAT like to see them in isolation, but that is not how adcoms see them; one benchmark validates the other, and it is only reasonable that it works that way.
I feel strongly that APs and SATs should not become a substitute for grades, if only because I think it is a truly bad idea that one company with a specific curricular philosophy should become the arbiter for quality in our kids; at the same time, grades are, in fact, subject to variation that has to be acknowledged. If someone has a suggestion for a different system, let them by all means make it, but otherwise, this is what adcoms have to work with.
I got into college because of my test scores. My GPA and class rank were likely less than 25th percentile at my alma mater. But I was one of only 2 NMSF in my HS class of 300. No prep class. Just looking at that gray pamphlet everyone gets. Working class. Good at tests. Bad at taking teacher bull crap.
Anyone who thinks a GPAocracy is better than a testocracy ignores that GPA is so specific to each HS and teacher. Sure, some kids would do well at a top private college with a 2000 or less SAT score, but the reverse is also true; those of us with high test scores but low GPA (low = less than 3.5 uw) students do well in college too.
There is a reason that there are essays. And interviews. Colleges, even HYPM, consider circumstances and eloquence, as well as interest in the school.
The idea of colleges not making up their own criteria, even year to year as in the case of Michigan’s deferrals, or even Harvard’s deferrals, is silly. What are the needs of the college? What did the college find out last year and before regarding yield and what the yield looked like in terms of diversity and other factors?
Actually registering for the APs is pretty easy. I have lived in a county where their zoned school even paid for 1/2 of their test fees even though they had never walked through the door until registration day. (The county subsidized all AP tests that yr. Homeschoolers were not excluded.) All it took to request a seat was an email the guidance counselor. Other places, the ps’s are not so friendly and finding a seat often requires a private school. Either way, it is not really that difficult. CollegeBoard has a link with the different schools offering the various exams by location.
What is difficult is finding seats for exams that aren’t being offered. My ds took physics at a university, but I know homeschoolers who have had difficulty finding seats for both C exams b/c both aren’t being offered.
I find the entire conversation interesting from a purely outsiders POV. That somehow the SATs give more objective weight than other tests to a subjective process is not an argument I personally find compelling. If the only point is to demonstrate academic background and ability to succeed, the other tests should be valid indicators. At this point, we follow the pack and take them, just doesn’t mean I agree with it.
@badgolfer offers an excellent example of Ms. Guinier’s lack of understanding of Restriction of Range (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_conclusion_validity#Restriction_of_range). It is like doing an analysis of the quality of guards within the NFL to determine if weight is correlated with their performance. Since the range is so restricted (i.e., they’re all over 300 lbs), there appears to be no correlation.
Only top schools I have seen mandate AP exams are Oxford and Cambridge.
So how does anyone advocate that the students be even judged by that test when no school requires them?
@texaspg “So how does anyone advocate that the students be even judged by that test when no school requires them?”
Did you even read what I wrote b/c that does not represent what I stated at all. My point was if students had APs and subject tests, why require the SAT/ACT? A linear process doesn’t exist to begin with. It seems like the entire process is about the big picture of the student until you funnel down to the testing. At that point 2 tests (out of the many standardized tests out there) are the prism through which “background grades” are supposedly validated. My question is simple. If a student takes a broad range of APs and subject tests (math, science, foreign language, English) then what does the SAT/ACT offer that is not being correlated to a standard? Why is it required?
The suggestion that not all students have access or that several scores are harder to glance through vs several (how many kids submit only 1 score to schools that require them all?) are not compelling arguments. The only logical argument I have read is that it gives them an opportunity to compare that student’s scores to their high school’s profile (an aspect from which I am completely removed…though if admissions wanted to compare my kids to the local high school, we would only benefit. 
)
"What if the test-optional colleges were to sue the US News & World Report for libel? After all, USNews admits they use fake SAT averages for the schools which don’t submit scores. Thus, they know it’s not true, and they know it’s misleading to the consumers of their product.
It would be more appropriate for USNews to list the score-optional colleges, rather than assigning them a fantasy SAT score. Bob Morse may believe whatever he chooses to believe, but when he publishes false data, he’s knowingly publishing a lie."
Completely agree with this.
The other comment I have is about Morse being “the most powerful man in America.” Only because certain people surrender power to him and refuse to empower their own brains and own priorities, harness their own information and use their own powers of discernment, that’s why.
"I got into college because of my test scores. "
Unlikely. Got in based on more than one factor. No one “gets in” within the last 20 years of admissions based on one factor, unless that factor is one of four Hooks which has nothing to do with scores.
You just assume it was ONLY your score, or it was a different generation of admissions.
Apparently, because “Bob Morse is the most powerful man in America.” 
(Colleges need the SAT/ACT for ranking points.)
Ding, ding, ding. That I do believe. 
you even read what I wrote b/c that does not represent what I stated at all. My point was if students had APs and subject tests, why require the SAT/ACT? "
The SAT/ACT are FAR more accessible than the APs! I know on CC everyone’s hs offers 20 APs but in the real world, only a minority of schools offer even 1 AP.
As well, in many Midwest states, the ACT is required as part of hs (regardless of whether you intend to apply to college). It would be silly not to accept/require a test that is free and mandatory for thousands of kids.
Sigh. I give up. The box’s lid is pretty heavy, so I assume it is not easy to consider that schools could use different tests to evaluate student background. Kids don’t have AP classes now. Do schools consider the profile of the school now? Yes. Students are compared to what their school offers. Do they take the most rigorous coursework, etc. It isn’t as if this isn’t already being recognized and evaluated during the admission process.
If kids don’t have APs, then use the SAT/ACT. If a kid just loves sitting in a room taking 3 hr bubble tests, take the SAT/ACT. But, it is ridiculous to assert that a kid’s academic background cannot be assessed w/o those 2 tests when they are submitting multiple other scores ESPECIALLY when the schools INSIST that students are not flat applicants and that they are holistic.