How Harvard and Yale cook the books -- Read at your own peril!

“How rich do you have to be before you don’t care about your SAT score at all?”

Exactly. It’s amusing to think of these families (esp from overseas) who try to donate millions to get their kid into Harvard. Honey, if you have millions hanging around to donate, you don’t need Harvard at all. In fact, your kid can go to Party-On State U, join a frat, have a grand old time, attend just enough classes to be respectable - and you’re totally fine!

I know at least a dozen very high-net wealth families whose kids went to Mizzou, Kansas, etc. Why the heck not? The kids weren’t academic / intellectual - they didn’t need to be! Who did they have to impress - the boring old eggheads going to the Ivy League? Pshaw! They bought and sold those people for lunch! There was no “status” in their eyes to having a perfect 4.0 / 2400 / whatever. The status in their eyes was having, enjoying, preserving and increasing the money they already had from family businesses. Now, if they happened to have a kid who was interested in an elite school, great and they’d do whatever they could to further that ambition, but what, again was the point? Families can make millions of dollars a year in the family t-shirt business or owning a chain of restaurants or designing footwear or whatever and no one needs a stinkin’ Ivy League degree to do so!

And yk something? These were and are nice, good people, who donate to their communities and charities, who run successful businesses that employ people – they’re just as successful IMO as the stereotypical i-banker-on-Wall-Street, and they probably have a heck of a lot more fun in life too.

Pizza- I agree with everything you’ve said except for the last line. Fun is a relative term and many of the folks you describe end up with a high degree of unhappiness, ennui, or pathology in their lives. Inheriting the family business and having lots of dough doesn’t protect you from a bad marriage (or two or three), substance abuse, eating disorders, etc.

I’d stay away from judging whose life is better. But for sure- there is a certain income level in this country where they don’t give two hoots about “which is better, Harvard or Williams”. Granddaddy graduated from the school of hard knocks, Daddy inherited mega bucks, and little junior is heading off to major in tennis and tanning so he can get a BA and join the board of directors.

Here is the list of Prestigiosity Rank vs. Service Rank (based on a sort on the service section of the Washington Monthly data)

Prestigiosity Rank…Service Rank (out of 244)

1.Harvard…172
2.Princeton…231
2.Yale…203
4.CalTech…223
4.MIT…192
6.Stanford…53
7.Columbia…201
7.Penn…76
7.Duke…51
10.Amherst…135*
10.Williams…134*
10.Swarthmore…62*
13.Dartmouth…63
14.Cornell…127
15.Chicago…99
16.Northwestern…210
16.Rice…70
16.WUSTL…20
19.JHop…163
19.Emory…84
19.Vanderbilt…17
22.Tufts…10
22.Georgetown…32
22.Wesleyan…179*
22.Middlebury…249*
22.Bowdoin…151*

*Rank within the LAC list

“Fun is a relative term and many of the folks you describe end up with a high degree of unhappiness, ennui, or pathology in their lives. Inheriting the family business and having lots of dough doesn’t protect you from a bad marriage (or two or three), substance abuse, eating disorders, etc.”

No doubt! Hey - life has no guarantees! But I’m not so sure they have any more or less unhappiness, ennui or pathology in their overall lives than the Harvard-Yale-Williams crowd, either.

I just mean - the college search process and potentially even the college experience is a lot more fun when you’re not academically inclined and it’s cool to go to Boulder and be on the slopes, or go to parties , and put in a respectable academic showing but not feel compelled to off yourself should you get an B for the first time. And as speaking as someone who has a case of the Deadly Seriousness, there are sometimes things I should learn from people who didn’t / don’t concentrate about or care about academics the way I always did and still do.

Learning can be fun if you don’t let academics get in the way…

Sorry to be joining this conversation late. My impression is that Lani Guinier is an advocate much more than a scholar.

There are lots of ways that Harvard and Yale et al. advantage the already advantaged. [If I’m a class warrior, I’m doing it pretty badly as I’d be attacking my class here]. The Z-list, admission preference for legacies, the preferences for offspring of celebrities, hedgies, and politicians as well for lacrosse and squash players, etc. Giving weight to interesting things a kid has done that required the bank of Mom and Dad. Guinier’s assertion that AA has led to an upsurge in Harvard or elite admission of upper middle class African-Americans and immigrants rather than native US-born inner city kids is supported by a couple studies (one may be from her with colleagues).

Incidentally, as someone pointed out, the claim that SAT scores don’t predict grades may reflect a methodological problem. The low correlation between SAT scores and grades may well have something to do with schools’ own selection mechanisms. Not only is there likely to be a restricted range, as pointed out earlier, but kids with lower scores who are admitted may well have that special je ne sais quoi that got them selected in the first place. It would be interesting to look at schools in a country like Canada where a much broader range of students go to the same schools (alas, they don’t use SATs except for Americans) or maybe even a state where almost everyone goes to the same school and college admissions themselves don’t bias the results.

Whether SATs advantage the rich seems more complex. These are complex issues that can’t be dealt with well, except in something much longer than a long post, so I apologize and hope I don’t say something offensive because I am not putting in all the qualifications and nuances.

The tests measure a certain set of problem-solving skills. Those skills probably are helpful in certain kinds of tasks and classes but not others. Posters who are corporate recruiters (Blossom perhaps) say that doing well on the math SATs is a prerequisite for being interviewed for many finance jobs and likely management consulting jobs. Those skills probably aren’t useful in some other adult tasks (e.g., I doubt SAT scores predict who will be a great painter and maybe not even who would be a good psychotherapist).

In general, kids with higher SES get higher SAT scores, though as @JHS‌ points out, not necessarily at the very top of the income distribution. Higher SES families contribute to this by reading to their kids early on (even in the womb), living in towns with good school districts, sending their kids to private schools, hiring test prep firms, etc. These environmental contributions clearly make a difference. It would be a mistake to assume that just because Daddy and Mommy have a higher income, Kiddo will have higher SAT scores without these environmental inputs, as some people seem to suggest. The higher SAT scores arise in part because of the enriched environment, which helps with test scores but other aspects of academic performance as well (and perhaps also to life outcomes).

There may aslo be another direction to the causation. Higher SAT scores seem to be correlated with life outcomes. In a study of kids who placed in the top 1% (of IQ or SAT tests) at age 13, those with higher scores did better at age 33 on a number of metrics (see http://www.businessinsider.com/this-chart-proves-just-how-much-sat-scores-predict-future-success-2012-5) including income. On average, if you looked at the population as a whole, controlling for parental income, I don’t think it would be surprising to find that on average, higher SATs would be correlated with higher income or other life outcomes, even controlling for parental income. That is, how surprising would it be to find out that, controlling for parental income, kids with 1500 SATs in general had higher incomes than kids with 800 SATs?

Just as there are genetic and environmental contributions to IQ, there are likely to be genetic and environmental contributions to SAT scores. If so, having higher SAT parents is likely to help kids both genetically and, if the parents perform better in terms of income as suggested by the study quoted in the link above), with environmental inputs as well.

The racial / ethnic issues are complex. “Scientists” used to say that immigrants had low IQs because when they took them IQ tests, they performed poorly, ignoring the fact that many immigrants didn’t speak much English and the tests were in English. Beyond the language divide, some groups are much more likely to come from highly non-enriched environments. Comparisons across groups may be hard. Just giving free test prep (as the College Board has vowed to do) will not equalize the environmental inputs. This is consistent with Blossom’s age 5 hypothesis. That is why, I suspect, Harvard ends up with immigrant and upper middle-class African Americans making up something like 80% of their African American student body – their parents have been giving the environmental inputs. If AdComs have a lower SAT threshold for URMs as the Espenshade (?) paper suggests that they do, the current use of the SATs may not discriminate against African Americans (unless the threshold is not set well). If so, getting rid of SATs may make it harder to find URMs who, despite weaker educational background, will be able to perform in the elite academic environments. But this is complex stuff.

I have been searching for information about the top SAT scorers and where they come from. Someone upthread had mentioned that there is little correlation between income and scores at the top end and I had also heard that somewhere so I wanted to find some evidence.

The information on income can be found starting on page 14 of this study.

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/projects/bpea/spring%202013/2013a_hoxby.pdf

If you find this thread interesting, you’ll probably also find this study interesting.

shawbridge Very nice post. I don’t say this to everyone. Prof. Guinier lacks understanding of statistics or chooses to ignore it to make her points appear stronger than they are.

Hunt neatoburrito’s link has the data about the percentage of high SAT scores by income. As you can clearly see, the top quartile of income only has 34% of top scorers while the rest consists of 66% of the top scorers.

^^but since this threads’ title focuses on H & Y, it’s important to note the the author’s view of high achieving (1300/29) is more competitive for a college ranked ~30, than top 10. So a better question is what quartile has the most 2200+'s?

bluebayou, True but the distribution of HYPSM level of SAT should be similar to those in the research, there just won’t be as many in each quartile of income and in case that the percentage rate of higher SAT advantage that high income kids might have will be offset by the large number of lower income students who have percentage rate of top scorers that is lower.

each time I read this, it sounds mixed up, I could say this clear but it’s late.

Achieving upper middle class wealth generally comes from a combination of intelligence, education and diligence. Such parents are generally more likely to have genetically more intelligent and diligent children than the mean, so more of such children would deserve to get into HYP, etc. If 10% of Harvard’s students were coming from the lowest 10% SES families, I would view it as a failure of meritocracy, and a decision to prefer social engineering.

Under what statistical theory can you make that assumption? Without hard data, how can we say that the 2250’s are not primarily in the top quartile, while the 1950-2190’s tend to fall in the say, 4 quintiles.

btw: the standardized tests have a long tail skewed left, if left is low scorers.

As @blossom stated there is a direct correlation between reading comprehension/vocabulary that starts before a child ever enters kindergarten.

http://www2.ed.gov/programs/readingfirst/2008conferences/language.pdf. (Page 23-25)

While innate intelligence plays a part in this, the lack of a nurturing environment is key. I personally don’t believe that children from lower SES have lower innate intelligence. These children just haven’t been nurtured from day one like their wealthier counterparts and the results are telling,

When you think about how most tests are structured, reading comprehension is essential to acing the test. Math and science problems require a higher level of reading comprehension. My understanding of the science section on the ACT is that it is much more about reading comprehension than science.

My family is on the lower rungs of the SES; however, I talked and read to my kids from day one. As I don’t watch television, my kids were never plopped in front of a television as a means of child minding. I read to my kids every day when they were younger. My kids couldn’t participate in multiple activities because I don’t/didn’t have the means, but through scrimping in many other ways, I have supported their musical endeavors. My daughter would love to take voice lessons, but I can’t afford to pay for voice and violin lessons. So, we as a family of lower means choose AN activity, not multiple activities. My son was able to go to a music camp, but only because he had a complete scholarship. Things like that were not in our budget. Kids from families of higher means can participate in all the enrichment activities that activate all those wonderful connections in their brains. I am not trying to say “woe is me”, but trying to point out the differences that take place throughout a child’s formative years. Children from families of means have a leg up. I think we can all agree on that. While a nurturing environment can be found at all SES, it is more likely to be found at the higher levels where keeping a roof over your head is not your major concern.

I’m too low in verbal ability to follow/understand that statement. Elaboration?

More so since the 93? re-centering, which squished the top (right tail) down on itself and increased the number of 800s dramatically. We’re still about 10 years or so away from the time when parent’s views of the SAT aren’t distorted by having taken the test under the old scaling.

I have a few data points in family and friends that say otherwise but I have no substitute theory. Essentially, I am stating that their English vocabulary at age 5 due to being part of immigrant families was not that great (many also spoke other languages at home) but their scores improved quite a bit between 7th grade GT identifying test and 10th grade PSAT practice test with little or no external tutoring help.

Nature and nurture both favor the kids of the top 10% by SES over the bottom 10%.

Dadx, when sorghum says: “If 10% of Harvard’s students were coming from the lowest 10% SES families, I would view it as a failure of meritocracy, and a decision to prefer social engineering”, what he is saying is …

If you observe that 10% of H’s class is from the bottom 10% of SES, then by definition, H did not admit according to the most meritorious, because a class solely drawn on meritoriousness would naturally favor / be slanted towards upper SES since those are the folks who are both inherently smarter and more likely to nurture academic study habits / achievement in their children. If you observe this full 10% of “the poors” being there, it means that H took pity by deliberately “uplifting” students who didn’t “deserve” to be there academically to achieve what they perceive to be the greater good of social engineering.

It’s one view of the world - admittedly, it’s a very cold-hearted, calculated, let-them-eat-cake view of the world. It’s a very scarce-resource worldview, and it comes from the perspective that you have to fight over scraps of pie rather than that the pie could ever get bigger.

People of substance, character and grace who are in the upper SES understand that it’s not the end of the world if they have to slum it at Tufts instead of Harvard because they’ll still do well - and they feel gratified by being able to give a hand up to people who may have quite-the-same-SAT scores but who may have overcome great hardship, etc.

And then there are the rest - whose rightful seat at Harvard has been “stolen away” and who will be forever bereft because with all of their supposed brains, they can’t POSSIBLY succeed in life without a Harvard name, and besides, what will the extended family say, and what could be more important than impressing the neighbors.

Regarding, I think #54, perhaps my test scores weren’t the only reason I got into an Ivy, BUT I would argue that clearly if they were in line with my GPA, my application would have been tossed. Maybe the NMSF designation mattered too (but by the numbers, it seems like the percent now is under 0.4%, and it was the top 0.5% when I took the PSAT).

As for 5 year old vocabulary vs. test scores, my middle son didn’t speak until past that age. He has kicked butt on both verbal and math tests, though still has speech issues as a teenager. Before he could speak in terms of responding in sentences, he could read words and write.

I feel that reading matters a LOT and is why my eldest didn’t do as well on the CR section. He doesn’t like to read. Also why I think my youngest daughter will do well on the SATs, she reads like it is a disease.

Oh, and my dad and my maternal aunt both skipped grades in school, and both were ESL (different home languages). In both families, the children contributed to teaching their parents English. My dad was a reader too, but was sent to votech because poor kids would not end up in college. He was the 8th grade valedictorian and was sent to votech. Paternal grandmother was very much into education and making something of yourself, so half her kids went to college and all grandkids went to college. Maternal grandmother tried to protect the kids from getting beaten up by grandfather. My mom and one aunt had the children going to college, and all of the other aunts and uncles had kids who barely stayed out of prison, lots of single parent, welfare, alcohol, drugs. Strong positive parental influence can happen when you are poor, and can make a huge difference.

@rhandco, that is a great story and the key point is that parental/environmental inputs matter a lot. @blossom‌’s 5 yo vocab test probably doesn’t apply to kids from non-English speaking homes or for kids with learning/other disabilities.

Have you considered audiobooks for your son? My extremely bright, extremely dyslexic son found reading physically painful but devours audiobooks – if I could have bought stock in audible.com, it would have been a good investment just on my purchases. Despite his learning disabilities, he got a perfect score on the GRE Verbal. And, it wasn’t from physically reading the books.