<p>Yes, if engineering is a serious “maybe” then that narrows the scope.</p>
<p>Kids with those stats will likely get into all but the very top schools in this country. Full pay, wellprepared,great grades, high test scores will do it. He also is in the running for those top schools, but IMO, these days, you need a two hit special to get into those school in addition to the academic credentials. Used to be one hook or hit would do, but now one needs two. Like recruited athlete, plus alum status, URM plus connection, </p>
<p>I have been saying for years that getting a college counselor is going to become de rigueur in selective college admission, just as paying for test prep for the SATs, and I am seeing this as the case in the NYC area and other places where a lot of kids apply to the most selective schools. Problem is finding the right counselor, even if you can pay for this service. I agree with Xiggi, though sadly. </p>
<p>If state schools are on his list and he is interested in engineering, he had better get his app in early as those spots fill up fast and they won’t take Einstein reincarnated once the they are full.</p>
<p>Any idea of what schools the family, the kid wants? If some core schools can be identified, one can branch into the more and less selective schools that are similar.</p>
<p>EA would be a great litmus test. Apply to MIT, Georgetown, BC, UMich, state school, Fordham, TEmple early if East coast is preferable . See what he gets in term of accept, reject, defer. Some schools are giving out merit packages early these days, so one can see what one can get. That narrows the list to just school preferable to what he nets early. He gets free tution at Temple, likely a generous merit award at Fordham, a spot at a state school with maybe some merit and then one can see what the other schools do with his app. Do check if the schools have single choice restriction, as I have not done so and some have them when they did not when we last went through this mill.</p>
<p>@cptofthehouse:</p>
<p>Actually, being a recruited athlete is enough of a hook by itself at any DivI school (which includes the Ivies).</p>
<p>No, Purple Titan, it is not Being a highly rated recruited athlete is a hook. Having gone through the process with my recruited athlete and my friend right now going through it with hers, it’s not that easy My son went from a shoo in to reject at Dartmouth when the suddenly yanked the athletic program Even with the sport there, they were looking at who at certain levels of recruitment also had the best stats for admission. It’s not a shoo in to be an athletic recruit and the process is nerve wracking.</p>
<p>But isn’t there some uncertainty about the money the NCP will contribute? Really, until the finances are clarified, this is all a shot in the dark. If the kid gets accepted to Dartmouth and can’t pay the bills…the acceptance will not be worth the paper it’s printed on!</p>
<p>I agree with Thumper that some clarification would be helpful, but in many cases like that, the NCP, or the parents in general hedge. The bottom line often is that they will make the decision on what they will pay when the choices are all on the table and they have to make them. Can’t get them to budge. So you apply to schools that you KNOW are affordable and those that might be affordable without large amounts from the parents, and also throw in the high cost schools. You put together a varied list.</p>
<p>Around here, what usually happens is that such parents will cough up the money for those schools that they perceive as “worth it”, the name schools, the selective schools, but won’t for expensive schools that they do not recognize.</p>
<p>@cptofthehouse:</p>
<p>Yes, they look at the academics of athletes. They don’t look at other hooks, which is what you originally said. Furthermore, how desirable as an athlete that you are is important as well. If they can get a better athlete, they may yank your offer.</p>
<p>Also, what you said is confusing. They yanked the athletic program?</p>
<p>Re: #44 and #45</p>
<p>That means that, when selecting safeties, the price limit would have to be based on the worst case parental contributions. If the parents won’t commit any amount, this means schools with full ride merit scholarships.</p>
<p>Yes, a number of schools dropped athletic programs to be in compliance with Title IX. Coach from another ivy left to another school, leaving son hanging. It’s not so easy. And yes, they do look at other hooks. You can get in with the athletics AND something making you a stronger pick than another,. The process has a lot of leeway, and I am very familiar with how it can work. </p>
<p>The OP has stats that would give him free tuition at Temple Don’t know whether family will go for State U away rates and what he could get from there. There probably should be a local school in the mix, but I get the feeling that this is not going to be a financial shut out case where the parents decide not to pay penny one. But is some cases, it happens, so every student should be familiar with public school within commuting distance that are definitely doable, like a community college. </p>
<p>In many cases, the parents won’t commit to what they will pay, and the perceived value of the schools come into play in the end. When it came down to it, one famly we know just did not want to pay full freight to Holy Cross much as the and their student liked the school when there was the state option with honors college, and a pretty good catholic school discounting by $20K from that price My friend balked at paying full freight for his daughter’s first choice when a pretty good school came up with a $20K ayear award for her and really pushed for her to go there. He could have afforded it and would have paid the full private school price if she’d gotten into say, MIT or Harvard, maybe any of the other Ivies, but he could not bear to make the commitment for a quarter million dollars for schools that were not as prestigious when comparagbe schools were options for $80-120K less. Not worth it to him. But he would have ponied up if the other alternatives were not what struck him as worth while. She could have gone to some schools for even less, but those did not even enter the discussion. </p>
<p>@cptofthehouse :
So if the school drops a program, then your son didn’t have a hook left, did he? </p>
<p>Which means his example isn’t much evidence for your assertion that just being a highly-desired athlete in a particular sport isn’t a strong enough hook to get in to a DivI school (assuming that you have the academics).</p>
<p>The way it works in general for athletic recruits is that there are some truly hot athletes for whom the school will bend their own admissions rules for. Some schools have a quota or range that they give the athletic director or a sport important to the school for pretty much “free choices” if an athlete can meet that category, you are right, no other hook is needed. In fact some criteria would be loosened or let go for such athletes. </p>
<p>Most athletes do NOT fall into that category, and there is some push and pull and discussion as to which ones can be accepted on the coache’s wish list. Because coaches want to get as many students on that list as they can, they will try to get those who can get accepted on their own merits accepted, not due to an official athletic pick This is where other hooks can come into play. As well as academic profile A school that is seeking URMs may be very interested in such students even if they are not as high on the coache’s list If the kid shows up on the legacy list at a school where that hook is pretty strong, that could bring him in and let the coach use his picks on other kids that don’t have that alternative, And maybe the kids who go in from the second hook would not have gotten in on athletics alone. So it’s not a straightforward thing There are always other kids and other schools in the picture too, so there is a lot of “horse trading” going on and it’s avery tense thing when looking at athletics as a hook. Coaches often have kids marked as those who would benefit the team that are not the actual official athletic recruits, and those students are much at an advantage with a second hook. That info does go to Admissions. So being an athlete may often be a “tip” not a “hook” and at some schools, yet another hook would bring the decision across the accept line.</p>
<p>My son actually had another strong hook but not one that was pertinent to Dartmouth. Though his academics put him right in the mid 50% of those accepted there, without another strong reason, it was not enough to get him accepted. He was also not such a great athlete that he would get accepted without having academic numbers in that midstream. He got into BC without the athletic hook because the coach there was not interested as he had what he needed for his team, though he was on the phone very quickly with when he found out that admissions accepted him as a general applicant. </p>
<p>These days it’s a bit easier to do the athletic rounds because a lot of sports have forums and people can discuss what is happening in real time Back 15 years ago, that was not the case, and you were often in the dark as to what happened. </p>
<p>I apologize for going so off topic here. What I wanted to note was that with the most selective schools, it seems to me that it is taking more and more over the academic numbers for acceptance. Twenty five years ago, legacy really was a big deal even at the top school Dad graduated from that school, and student is within the mid range of acceptance, it was a done deal most of the time. The same with a number of other hooks. Now it seems like you need more, as more kids are applying to that same small group of the most selective schools. I’m not saying it’s a “two hook” rule here No rules in place, but it’s taking more than a hook and a good academic record in more situations. </p>
<p>When I looked at our school’s Naviance, it looks like Dartmouth would be a match for him - SAT wise he’s smack in the middle of the accepted kids, but GPA wise he’s on the low end, but definitely still in the pack. His SATs are comparable to the only student who’s applied recently to Northwestern from my D’s school, but she was a recruited athlete who signed her commitment letter in junior year so I’m not sure her stats are relevant.</p>
<p>Halfempytpockets, do talk to the GC and ask if the kids accepted there tended to have hooks. That is a lacking in Naviance that a lot of independent schools I know have adjusted by doing their own form of this but adding special features, like gender, ED, athlete, performing arts, Portfoli, legacy, URM, first gen, special category. Looking at those pages, i could see that a number of the kids getting into highly selective schools were multi hooked. </p>
<p>However, the super-selective schools tend to need high stats and something extra for admission, where the something extra is not captured in the Naviance plots based on stats. “Something extra” may be a top-end extracurricular achievement or award, or “hook” characteristic, or obviously much greater academic achievement than merely high GPA and SAT/ACT scores would indicate. So assessing chances based on just being in the stat range of such schools may be unreliable.</p>
<p>Thanks, @cptofthehouse . I’ll do that! I know from my daughter that at last one girl was a legacy at Dartmouth, but I have no idea which scores were hers. D’s school is all girls, not sure if that’s relevant. </p>
<p>It’s one issue you don’t need to deal with–gender. There are schools where admissions is definitely favorable to one gender over another, so when you are looking at those points, it can be relevant to know what the gender of those students were. </p>
<p>It 's a bit dismaying when you look at Naviance and figure you are at the middle or higher in the pack of accepted students and then when you look at the school notebook with more detailed results you find that every below you and the ones right above you all had one hook at least. </p>
<p>Welcome back!</p>
<p>I think D is a big reach for this kid. It is not out of the question, especially with excellent recs and essays, since they really are holistic and he sounds like he would be a fit there on the personal front. </p>
<p>For a better idea of testing stats in D admissions, look here:</p>
<p><a href=“http://admissions.dartmouth.edu/facts-advice/facts/testing-statistics”>http://admissions.dartmouth.edu/facts-advice/facts/testing-statistics</a></p>
<p>They are among the few schools that actually provide figures that show who applies and who gets in. Note that the score that gives the biggest admissions boost is an 800 on the CR section.</p>
<p>Yes, I think having him get no help at all with his essays IS dumb. 
I’ve worked with a few kids on their essays. I don’t write the first draft, or rewrite it, or change their voice, I help them distill what it is that they really want to say, and do so more vividly and effectively. It’s a level of close reading, conversation, and feedback that kids just don’t get in HS. The thing is that he needs someone who really understands writing, not someone who is going to try to change it to a legal brief, a business report, or a garden-variety 5-paragraph essay.</p>
<p>I thought of Colby and possibly Bowdoin (he’d probably love it, but it is also very reachy these days). Similarly, he’d probably love Williams, but getting in is another matter. Colgate and Hamilton are often cited as alternatives to D. I’m a big fan of Carleton, a great school with smart kids and a lot of character,and I really think he should look at it. His stats make it more of a high match for him there, and being male would help, no doubt. (Econ and math are two of their more popular majors.)</p>
<p>Bucknell, Lafayette, and Lehigh would all be solid choices for him. He is in the top 25% by stats, and they offer engineering. Swarthmore also offers engineering, and is a great school, but it is much reachier than those three.</p>
<p>Does he have legacy anywhere?</p>
<p>Yes, hooks, and does Naviance indicate whether apps were ED or not? At some schools, applying ED is as big as a hook. Also great essays and thorough research of a school can be as good as a hook as well.</p>
<p>With gender, it depends not only on the college but also school and major, possibly. There are some well-respected engineering programs where the admissions bar for girls is much lower.</p>
<p>Fewer schools (mostly LACs) where being a boy is an advantage, but Vassar has a considerably higher admit rate for boys than girls.</p>
<p>In general, I feel that people on CC are too stats-focused, but if you read results threads, all that soft stuff does seem to matter with the elites that admit holistically.</p>
<p>A few thoughts here that might help getting the OPs question onto the right tracks:</p>
<p>I do NOT think that it is important to focus on the athletic recruiting as the kid is not an athletic recruit candidate. Not to dismiss the participation as an EC, but that is as far as that “hook” will go! Secondly, the focus on the intention of studying “econ, business, finance, or perhaps engineering or CS” does NOT mean much as it is the UBER TYPICAL answer of the majority of male teenagers. It is a proxy of … I really have no idea but those sound good. There is a reason why colleges have such large classes in those particular majors. </p>
<p>The reality is that a CS and Econ majors are ubiquitous. Some programs are top notch and many are above average (duh) but making distinctions among schools is a futile effort. On the other hand, getting in is a quite a different objective. It is a given that the schools that TRULY excel in econ, math, or CS are all pretty hard to get in! </p>
<p>In the end, my take is that the OP should stick to a basic plan and identify the 80-100 percent schools that ARE safeties, and then identify the half dozen solid matches, and add the spice of a couple of reaches. Between all of us, if this thread lives for a while, the OP might end up with dozens and dozens of school with many that are only remotely applicable. </p>
<p>As far as getting the application polished, the pragmatic approach should include the SAT retake as the OP mentioned it would be done and then work on the details such as developing an attractive presentation of essays and ECs in an attempt to make the kid memorable. If the adcoms remember the kid as “the Zurich or Singapore Lacrosse player” good things might happen. </p>