<p>In a nutshell, the above might explain the abysmal admit rates at the so-called elite schools in the last years. Eight is an obvious reference to the Ivy League. If you toss your hat in the P or H ring, why not apply to all of them? And so it goes for the jump at Cornell. And when Cornell and Penn dropped below 20 percent, they got a bite of the Chicago syndrome. The domino effect at its best! </p>
<p>And then some are wondering why the expression crapshoot got popular? </p>
<p>Schools just below the top-20 or so are dying for full-pay students. I have every confidence this boy will be admitted somewhere decent enough. The better question isn’t where he can get in, but where should he go? Sure, have the reaches, can’t hurt as the family can afford it, but focus on those middle-ranked schools. Just make sure he knows the numbers on those elite schools and point out the bottom 25%ile of scorers are not coming from his background.</p>
<p>The biggest impediment to entry looks like it will be the GPA. However, if this is an international school with very hard grading, maybe it won’t be as bad. What is the class rank and percentile?</p>
<p>I wouldn’t call it a match, but a somewhat lopsided candidate may be able to get into a school like Carnegie Mellon, especially with the A±type grades in the math/science classes.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl: Depends on the individual. I didn’t say <em>only</em> apply to 8 elites, BTW. As I said, your psyche has to be strong enough and you have to have safeties that you’re happy with for that strategy to make sense. In a sense, it’s all psychological framing. If you prepare yourself to attend a safety, then any acceptance to a school above that is a bonus.</p>
<p>@Xiggi: Yep. There is definitely that going on. Joining a particular athletic conference back in the day definitely has given a boost to the perceived prestige of the non-HYP Ivies. If they weren’t in that certain athletic conference, Columbia’s acceptance rate would be the same as Chicago’s, UPenn’s acceptance rate would be the same as Northwestern’s, and Brown’s and Dartmouth’s acceptance rates would be the same as Duke’s or maybe Rochester’s/Colgate’s.</p>
<p>With CMU, I reckon that it would depend heavily on what school he applies to.</p>
<p>For something Dartmouth-y, Rice, WashU, and Vandy (not completely the same, but there are similarities) as well as a ton of LACs are worth looking at.</p>
<p>First - did a post get deleted? From someone named Isabelle? I miss EVERYTHING:)
Second - I told my friend about the concerns about our friendship and she laughed. Believe me, she’ll do what she sees fit. I am advising, not consulting.
Third - Here’s what my friend’s boy’s list will look like.</p>
<ol>
<li>An EA reach because better not to regret trying. In full understanding of the chances. Might be Dartmouth, might be Carleton. </li>
<li>State schools in his two home states.</li>
<li>~ 5 schools in the nicely put, "The OP’s “target” (or low reach) schools, in my opinion, fall roughly in the 20-40 national universities range (CMU, Tufts, BC, Rochester, CWRU, Lehigh) </li>
<li>~5 schools in the also well put, “or a little higher than that, say 15-35, for national LACs (such as Wesleyan, Bates, Colgate, Richmond).” </li>
<li>Might throw one more crapshoot app in there just because.</li>
</ol>
<p>Fourth - My friend is looking into counselors, for the essay support.</p>
<p>Also, I probably FAILED to brand my kids into school. I do come from privilege and am a Princeton alum (see my blog title:)), but am also a Northern California quasi-hippie from way back. I sent the kids first to a progressive grammar school where the afternoon curriculum included pottery, woodshop, and weaving, then to a Catholic high school known for extreme liberalism.</p>
<p>While I might have liked to have packaged my children, my culture forbade it.</p>
<p>Dang. Sorry I can’t find that comment. I haven’t had a good Internet flaming in a while;).</p>
<p>Alumother, you are a class act as I know from your blog. I was defending your honor :-). The list and strategy seem great. Good luck to your friend. </p>
<p>Pizzagirl! Thank you! Clearly I need some help around here! xoxoxoxox.</p>
<p>Yes, that poster is now out of the picture. I’m not sure the exact reasons. </p>
<p>Glad you and your friend feel the friendship will be fine through this. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Both of these schools offer ED, not EA. ED is best used for a school that is his clear first choice without needing to compare financial aid and scholarship offers with other schools.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Has he identified his safeties? Or will he be happy starting at community college if he gets shut out?</p>
<p>That’s a lot of apps, a lot of work on supps- and he’ll need a good grip on what each school likes, wants, and needs. And is it really two home states? You may need to check how those states each define residents. And how competitive (or erratic in their decisions) those state schools are. </p>
<p>I think 12-14 schools is way too many. </p>
<p>Hi Alumother! I would advise him to add Brown to his crapshoot (reach) list - lots of California kids there who really love the place. I agree that the total number of schools is too much - an overwhelming number of apps and the quality of the essays is sure to suffer with that many. He only needs three low reach schools that he really likes…I like the 3/3/3 plan plus one ED for a total of ten applications.</p>
<p>I have read this entire thread and have found it incredibly interesting. I respect the OP for her care and concern for her friend and her friends son.
There is so much information to process in regard to this discussion. My own thoughts align most closely with Xiggi and Pizza Girls perspectives.
Given this students demographic he has to be across the board strong to be seriously considered at the most selective schools. His apparent weakness being his GPA and his lack of formidable EC’s. His essays will have to be outstanding and perhaps reflect insight in to a very unique and impressive element of who he is. His recommendations will need to be exceptionally strong as well.
A professional consultant would be advisable if this is what this student and his family want for him.
His essays and recs need to be strong for consideration in all top privates and top publics.
I don’t recall any one making reference here to what most admission committees of the most selective schools think of students with GPA’s on the low side based on their criteria and higher standardized test scores. Especially coming from this students demographic. His essays and recs will have to overcome that.
If the student and his family are looking for acceptances into a top 20 they should seek competent professional help.</p>
<p>changes to OP’s strategy I’d suggest:
<p>luck,</p>
<p>What would the point be of SAT prep for a kid who already has a combined 2200 score, with no scores under 700? IF the perceived weakness is GPA, then improved SAT score isn’t going to make a difference in admissions. </p>
<p>I think the kid should be done with SAT’s and focus attention on finding a good fit school and working on apps and essays.</p>
<p>Responding:</p>
<p>ucb - Oh dang. I was afraid that might be the case about ED. Just hadn’t looked up the details yet. I’m going to leave it up to the family to decide if he’s ready to make that potential commitment. Also, he will have safeties in the state schools. We will look for merit schools/safety schools in a similar pass, although I understand these will not overlap altogether.
lookingforward & twoinanddone - His family is comfortable with applying to 20 schools. That’s how they do things, I’m not going to advise differently. They have a lot of energy:).
GreatKid: I am absolutely passing along the recommendations for a counselor to focus on the essays. His grades have a back story, given the divorce, the move to Europe with a stepfather, etc., albeit not a terribly dramatic one.
quietdesperation: We need to look into EA/ED/ED2 at the next level of detail. I am waiting to review the list at a high level first, so the boy develops a little more clarity as to what he really wants.
calmom: Xiggi has made the point that if the boy can raise his CR score (700) up to something like the level of his M score (780), that does change the picture. I asked my son the boutique SAT tutor for advice, he said the kid is smart, no secret strategies to impart, just study the SAT vocab and sit the exam one more time to see what happens. This makes sense to me, the boy has not been a reader of big word books so far, and could without a doubt enhance his vocab with a little sustained effort. The issue isn’t sheer word knowledge, but the reading paragraphs usually include several more complex terms, and if you don’t know those you don’t read the paragraph correctly.</p>
<p>Also, yes, he really needs to look at the essays now.</p>
<p>xoxo everyone!</p>
<p>For raising test scores, is the ACT a possibility in addition to an SAT retry? Some students do better on the ACT than the SAT.</p>
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<p>here’s my thinking:
<p>@quietdesparation - I don’t think top schools look at SAT scores in the way CC’ers do. It’s more like a threshold that is met, than a comparative scale. Because of the way that scores are reported on the common data set, then having scores in the 700+ range on each subtest is very important – but beyond that it makes no difference. The schools know that at that level, the scores do not give them useful information about the student’s abilities, and there is no added value to them of a student who has a score of 750 CR vs. 700 CR – both will be reported in the same way on the common data set.</p>
<p>Because colleges report median score ranges and not averages, a higher number doesn’t add much weight either-- he’s just one more student who falls within the median, probably above the 50% mark at most schools.</p>
<p>The problem is that super-high scores in combined with a GPA that is not near the top for his school sends a potentially negative message to the ad coms. It says basically that the kid is more interested in doing well on a standardized test than with his school work. Now it’s possible the kid’s school is very challenging and that A’s are tough to come by --but that’s not the impression given by the OP. </p>
<p>The kid does not need to be “packaged” – no one does – but every application tells a story, and “really high SAT’s” is not the story that needs to be told. Maybe the kid’s story stems from his experiences living and attending school abroad, maybe it comes from the combination of his athleticism and intellectual talents. Maybe there’s a pattern to his grades (strong in maths and sciences) that is part of his story. </p>
<p>There’s no harm that I can see in retaking the SAT – except that I think it’s wasted effort. The kid might boost his scores by 100 points and be delighted – but that’s not going to change the admissions landscape by much, and may even have a negative impact in the sense of making the kid more complacent. (For example, not working as hard on an essay or choosing a more reach-y slate of colleges to apply to). Every spring the boards on CC are full of disappointed students with stellar SAT scores – they are stunned by results – and I think part of the problem is the CC mythology of SAT scores being a magic ticket. </p>