<p>I get your point. My previous posts were in response to those who argued that AP classes are like college classes. My son’s experiences show that they are not. But it is entirely correct that AP classes are significantly harder than Honors classes. </p>
<p>How much more work will they entail depends largely on the teacher. I was never persuaded that students needed to do 40 problems to get the math concept the teacher was trying to teach. I also remember the case of Carolyn’s D who took AP-Euro as a 10th grader from a teacher who was hell-bent on teaching it like a college class and was assigning 200 pages of reading per week, taking no account of the fact that students had 6 other classes. My S’s own AP-Euro was much less demanding than that.</p>
<p>I agree, too with your last statement, as I said in my first post on this thread.</p>
<p>mom2collegekids- They are required to take the AP exam if they take the course. Honestly I don’t know how they do on the exam. I should find out! I know last year I thought the AP Euro class was worthless and was sure my D would fail the exam and she got a 4. However, she didn’t do that well on the SAT2 on European HIstory (640)</p>
<p>We were told to expect 2 hours of homework per night for each AP class. D never spent that much time on any of them, got A’s/A+'s in all and passed all of her AP exams. It depends on the kid and to some extent the teacher.</p>
<p>marite, we were lucky my son’s AP Calculus teacher said. “This is a college level course. I trust you to figure out how many problems you need to do to make sure you understand the material.” My son got a five on the exam too. :)</p>
<p>For my son college is much more demanding than high school.</p>
<p>FallGirl, how many APs do students at your high school take? If it were really 2 hours of homework per class - you couldn’t possibly take more than a 2 or 3 at a time. I think that APs in our school have a theoretical hour or so a night and a bit more on weekends, but it seems to be quite variable and my kids never put as many hours in as other kids in the same class do.</p>
<p>S1 was totally discouraged by that AP-Calc teacher, and never took the class (and wrote his Chicago essay about moving from a love of math to a love of humanities!).</p>
<p>S2 was frustrated by the slow pace of courses in math and science and the constant review of the same materials (thanks to the spiraling method) until he was allowed to tackle precalc on his own. I think he did much less work than many of his classmates in AP classes. I never saw him overwhelmed by homework.<br>
I think we need to distinguish among pace, workload and level of difficulty. Among the three, pace and level of difficulty are more closely related. Many AP teachers seem to equate assigning a lot of busywork with rigor and difficulty.</p>
<p>marite, I believe you’re making arguments based on your own interpretation of the questions and delivering data to support your own question. No one said AP in high school is the same as college, though it likely is in some cases, in some high schools, in some colleges. I think most people would accept without questioning that college classes ask more in degree of difficulty, in depth of analysis and in other metrics related to difficulty. Otherwise, why have college? When you “do the math,” as you have said at least twice, you’re doing math for a problem that you’re defining and setting up a straw man. The reasonable, common interpretation is that AP classes can proceed at the same pace as college classes, not that they’re as hard as college or that the material is the same, etc. </p>
<p>AP history - at least in my very good high school - requires substantial note taking that is then checked over (so it must be done). AP Gov - which has a relatively easy exam - requires a ton of reading, including articles that vary substantially in quality and ease of understanding. Most people would also immediately agree that the cumulative effect of having 5 or even 6 academic classes with substantial workloads generates a total load on a weekly basis that can easily equal or exceed college workloads. I know kids taking 4 AP classes - including a couple of sciences plus a math (though AB calc is a completely different animal than BC) - and a literature class. If that kid then goes into science or engineering in college, he or she will likely not be shocked by the workload. (Many, in fact, tell me the workload is less.)</p>
<p>I hope it goes without saying that there are a handful of famously hard college classes. Or that some classes can be surprising in their workloads, such as advanced Mandarin because that becomes - at least in many colleges - about writing and translation not speaking and translation is a black hole of time sucking. </p>
<p>As to the value of AP, beyond making a transcript look marginally better, one of the main purposes of the design of the program is to teach organizational learning skills. I’ve heard this directly from the head of the College Board when he came to my high school. They want kids to learn how to manage time and see that as a substantial benefit AP can deliver. They have the same attitude about requiring writing on the SAT, that the requirement will filter backwards to force more attention to reading.</p>
<p>At our HS, the current teacher recommends the level of that course for the following year. I purposely avoid the AP night for parents. They push, push, push. If my kid is motivated and doing well in honors and is recommended for AP and expresses an interest, then we go for it. If they are recommended to continue in honors, that’s what we do. Granted we aren’t aiming for HYP, etc. however I want my kids to have a rigorous but not ridiculous HS experience. Plus, here in NY, the AP courses seem to give a lot of work over the summer to make up for the later school start here, and my kids are usually gone most of the summer at summer camp, etc.</p>
<p>My D took 2 APs junior year and is taking 2 senior year. The benefit on her college apps is that she is showing that she is trying to take the hardest classes possible FOR HER. I know what her AP test scores are (one was terrible, one was ok), but that’s not my focus. (By the way, we have heard from three colleges so far and she has been accepted to all.)</p>
<p>My S is a HS freshman and we meet with his guidance counselor later this month to map out his HS courses. He has strengths in different areas than D and will probably take more APs. But that’s just him. We will also go with teacher recommendations.</p>
<p>Sorry, but the interpretation of AP classes–and the reason that they are accorded college credit is that they cover the same materials as college classes. Otherwise, why bother? “Do the math” means do the math about the pace at which the same materials are covered. If it takes 33 weeks of four period classes to cover EXACTLY the same materials (from the same textbook, nacht) as a college class that lasted 26 weeks of 3 hours each, then the PACE cannot possibly be the same. Why is it so difficult to comprehend?</p>
<p>Most of the stronger students take at least 3 Senior year. I agree that the 2 hours/night doesn’t make sense but this is the standard line they use.</p>
<p>A number of colleges are rethinking their AP credit policy. A number of campuses no longer allow you to use AP credit to by-pass introductory science courses (AP still counts towards graduation). At one Ivy the average grade earned in the introductory Biology by students with only 9th biology was higher than average grade earned by kids with a 4 on the AP biology test. It appears AP Biology tends to teach to the test and stress content over concepts. The college board is aware of this ‘problem’ and has issued a draft report outlining curricular changes for AP Biology. The proposed curriculum focuses on getting HS AP biology instructors to focus on teaching their students to ‘think like a scientist’. In general, the science faculty I know think a HS student should take an AP course is it is available. However, in general they think the AP science offerings are not comparable to courses offered at many selective colleges.</p>
I think it’s easier in the fact there are no 2 hours of homework each night for 6-7 classes hence some seniors have no sleep. While taking 4 college classes per semester leaves more time to do other stuff. In college, the material is not necessarily easier but at least there is breathing room per night.</p>
<p>Yes, I agree. As I said, there is less busywork in college, and the fact that assignments are given out on a weekly basis means students have more control over their schedule.</p>
<p>to return to the original question, whether to do AP or Honors level work, it really depends on both the individual student and individual teacher. Some years ago, our high school cut out honors, leaving only highly heterogeneous CP classes and AP classes. Some students who would have thrived in Honors classes were thus pushed to take AP classes if they were unwilling to settle for CP classes where the reading level was assumed to be 6th grade and many students were utterly unengaged. The AP classes, however, were too challenging for them and they did not do as well as they could have and they ended up frustrated both with the grade they received and their lack of confidence that they had truly learned the material. Others took to AP classes very well.
My Ss had two different teachers for APUSH with very different teaching styles. One was really teaching to the test, and constantly gave quizzes. The other’s style was more along the line of “explication de texte” and regularly gave DBQs to students to analyze and write about. Her approach was less pressure-cooker. I think my two Ss got the same score on the AP exam.</p>
<p>OP – Please re-read post #7. And…if you are in a high performance school district with decent guidance counselors, follow the advice of the GC. (Couldn’t you enourage your child to ask the GC about ramifications of taking/not taking AP rather than you asking the GC?)</p>
<p>In spite of this threads discussion about the merits of AP classes, the courses others in his school have taken, will determine, in 12th grade, whether he has taken the most rigorous courses or not. If most of the kids in your school applying to Ivy, S, M, top 10 Unis and LAC’s take AP Euro in 10th grade, you son could be at a disadvantage if these are the schools he may apply to.</p>
<p>However…the 11th grade advanced classes and 12th grade choices (even without grades from the 12th grade choices) will be more important than a single 10th grade class.</p>
<p>The problem, at least in our school district, is that it is difficult (although not impossible) to get into 11th grade AP US History if a student did not take 10th grade AP Euro. </p>
<p>It’s just the way it is. It’s also nearly impossible to get into any 12th grade calculus class (AP or otherwise) if a student did not start accelerated math in 8TH GRADE!</p>
<p>So…as in many European countries…a student’s college destiny is determined when they are pre-adolescent. Tough situation for late bloomers.</p>
<p>(I know this is not the OP’s situation…just my own personal “rant.”. Late bloomers can make up for it with advanced HS summer school/college classes, and then get in to the “most rigorous” path…but…not an option for kids who need to work in the summer, or aren’t slackers but may need a little down time.)</p>
<p>Reading this post has made me nervous, so I thought I would weigh in and hopefully get some advice/comfort, if there is any to be had. My S (HS soph) isn’t taking any AP now, nor are there any plans for him to take any AP for the remainder of his HS career. (BTW his school offers a slew of AP courses and is considered to be in the top 3% of public high schools nationally.) S was diagnosed last summer with ADHD-Inttentive (his 9th grade GPA was abysmal, but his middle school GPA was 3.4). He’s bright and has a great memory, is a good reader and writer, but his organizational skills are non-existent, and he does pretty much just what it takes to get by. He won’t talk to a teacher if he doesn’t understand something. His soph grades so far are nothing to write home about. Having said all that, we really want him to go to a 4-yr college (so does he), so, my question is— can he get in somewhere w/o any AP classes, assuming his GPA and test scores are ok? (He took the PSAT and did better then I thought he would).
Thanks for any advice.</p>
<p>BfloGal: My D also has ADHD-Inattentive (diagnosed early 9th grade) and has done well in the humanities AP classes. Two things to note: 1) all the high achieving kids had a major reality check with the first AP class as none of them had to work that hard to succeed in previous classes. D’s experiences in working through the LD issues made her have somewhat of an easier time with that; and 2) if he really does want to go to a 4 yr. school, then he’s going to have to take ownership of his LD and make some connections between his academic behavior now and his educational goals in 2 years. It’s tough. But, he’ll have to get on the ball with the organizational skills and learn to self advocate by talking to teachers. We’ve been down this road in our house & I always say that cloud had a lovely silver lining :)</p>
<p>He most certainly can get in lots of schools without AP classes even if his school offers a ton; they just won’t be the upper tier schools that everyone on CC gets themselves worked up about. Those are the schools that worry about “most rigorous courses” taken.</p>
<p>I agree with RobD. Even at the top tier colleges, successful applicants do not necessarily have tons of APs. A lot of good colleges accept students without APs. Read the thread on “colleges for B students.” Plenty to choose from.</p>
<p>BfloGal, my nephew was diagnosed with ADHD but he graduated valedictorian of a decent CA high school. BTW, he never took any drug for ADHD. I would help your son with his organization skills, that maybe what he is lacking.</p>