<p>If I am looking to major in Math/Science fields how important is it to have done a significant amount of foreign languages. I did up to French III at the end of my sophomore year and as a junior next year I instead want to do research in Computer Science.</p>
<p>The other courses I will be taking are:</p>
<p>AP Calc BC
AP Physics C
AP US
AP English
Honors Acting
Independent Research (Computer Science)</p>
<p>At our competitive public school (and word from the private college counselor) Most competitive schools expect 3 but perfer 4 years of high school language. The VAST majority of applicants to these upper tier schools will have 4...3 might be risky, but two doesn't seem enough for super-high caliber schools</p>
<p>Yes, despite a Science and Math focus 4 years of langauge is very important for Harvard and Princeton.</p>
<p>What I found was that for Harvard and Pton it is of great importance to
do 4 years of one langauge <em>in</em> high school. The exception is if you are
a naturally gifted linguist and have exhausted the AP level by third year in which case you are expected to have proficiency in more recently offered
languages like Chinese or Japanese (over spanish). </p>
<p>Also there seems to be a trend or preference of German for Pton and French for Yale from the limited stats I have. No idea why.</p>
<p>At my school the top students who did not do a 4th year of langauge
or fall under the outstanding linguist category were usually waitlisted and
denied (my school sends 2-4 every year to Harvard).</p>
<p>Beware that French III (or any third year level of a foreign language in high school) is not very high by college standards. Some students place into third year as freshmen. As well, by the time you get to college, you will not have had a foreign language for two years if you skip junior and senior year, and you will have to take a placement test. If you don't place out, you will probably have to take oen year of a foreign language in your freshman year in college.</p>
<p>I think it depends on the rest of the application. My D only has 2 years of a foreign language and was accepted. I think they take a holistic view and this is just a small piece. By the way she is a math focused applicant.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The exception is if you are a naturally gifted linguist and have exhausted the AP level by third year in which case you are expected to have proficiency in more recently offered languages like Chinese or Japanese (over spanish).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It would be a very unusual admissions policy that penalizes students for finishing the AP track ahead of schedule, or exhausting their high school's courses. It can look bad if you finish off the math, science, literature, etc tracks by grade 10 and spend the next two years taking one basket-weaving class per semester as your high school schedule. Other than maintaining a reasonably active academic schedule, it would be surprising to hear that any applicant is "expected" to fulfill some special requirements as a result of successfully speeding through the curriculum.</p>
<p>What about if your native language is one other than English and you want to take advanced classes instead of another foreign language? I'm also planning in taking an AP exam in my native language (Spanish). Would this be okay?</p>
<p>Sorry to take over this thread, The Anomaly, but I've had this question for quite some time.</p>
<p>Olive Tree:</p>
<p>I agree with Siserune that a student who has mastered a language other than English does not have to take up another one. Since your native language is Spanish, you can take the exam and use the time that is freed up to study something else.</p>
<p>but does taking an AP exam in a language you're naturally fluent in show motivation and a passion for learning? the fact that you're fluent in spanish is great, but notice the schools don't look for "fluency/proficiency in a second language" but "4 years of a modern language". Getting a 5 on the Ap Spanish Language exam without taking the class says nothing to an admissions officer other than "yup, he/she really is fluent." Plus, it's a little like getting the easy A, no? The emphasis is on the study of a language I think, not the acquisition of one, although acquisition through study is probably the goal.</p>
<p>Some of the purposes of foreign language requirement for college admission and graduation are fulfilled simply by documenting AP-level mastery of a language, even if no course was taken at all and one speaks the language at home. If nothing else it indicates some familiarity with some foreign culture, history, literature and "perspective". If it is self-evident (due to recent immigration, foreign schooling or other obvious consideration) that this level of mastery exists then of course a language exam is superfluous.</p>
<p>The Anomaly, I think you can drop french. I am in the same situation as you; I want to drop french to take more science. I also want to major in math/science. I am going to take three sciences and math next year but no french! I asked my college counselor about it and he said he was sure it was fine and I trust him as my school sends many people to hypetc every year.</p>
<p>post 9 is totally wrong.</p>
<p>4 years of a foreign language. If you are fluent in a language other than English it demonstrates that you've had more than 4 years in that language. If you are a native speaker of that language, it demonstrates that you've had more than 4 years of English. The emphasis is NOT on the acquisition of language. I don't care if you spent umpteen years sweating over French conjugations. If you can't read French properly, you could not be trusted to handle the Foreign Culture class on humor, conducted entirely in French.</p>
<p>Passion for learning can be demonstrated in different ways. It does not have to be a passion for learning foreign languages if your passion is about playing the violin or studying biology.</p>
<p>What's wrong with getting an easy 5 on APs? Why does competence have to be earned the hard way?</p>
<p>All right, thanks for the help! This thread brings up some good points.</p>
<p>Hey, thanks for letting me know i'm "totally wrong". A simple disagreement definitely wouldn't have sufficed. But hey, this is the internet isn't it? condescending's the default tone.</p>
<p>I disagree with a lot of the ideas you bring up. Yes, being fluent in a language other than english is a wonderful trait. And yes, it demonstrates that you've probably had more than 4 years of experience in the subject. But hey! I'm fluent in English! Why don't i just not take that class? Plus, I've had 17 years of experience with the English language! Why waste my time in a classroom?</p>
<p>Because Harvard recommends "four years of English, with extensive practice in writing; four years of math; four years of science: biology, chemistry, physics, and an advanced course in one of these subjects; three years of history, including American and European history; and four years of one foreign language." They tell you what they want! Harvard calls that an ideal program of study, and if you'd like to be something other than an ideal candidate, by all means do so. Also, if you can find an addendum on the admissions page that says "except for students who are already bilingual, they're off the hook for the language requirement", by all means show it to me.</p>
<p>Obviously a student who can't read French properly won't get through a Foreign Culture class, but if you can't read French properly after 4 years of an accelerated plan of French study through high school than you shouldn't be at Harvard.</p>
<p>Yes, passion for learning can be displayed in different ways, but four years of the study of foreign language is specifically mentioned as an ideal trait for an applicant to possess. It's considered part of the most rigorous courseload you can take. How are you taking the most rigorous courseload if you spend the time you could be using to learn and master a 3rd language to slack off? It's like having the opportunity to be Student Council President and founding the Ping Pong club instead.</p>
<p>Or maybe you do use the time you would be spending on a language to pursue a passion you have, like taking extra math classes in this guy's case. That's great, but you're neglecting a significant area of your application, the study of a language. Dropping one core study to emphasize another is your risk. Would you stop taking Math sophomore year to take two languages? I know kids who go to summer school to take History because they take Chinese and Latin during the year. Thousands of kids manage to fit in extra devotion to their passions along with the core curriculum, do you really want to be the kid who doesn't?</p>
<p>What's wrong with getting an easy 5 on an AP that tests a language you're naturally fluent in? Well, nothing really, but what does it show the admissions officer? AP tests are given to students who are suitably above the normal course of study. They test the knowledge that those students acquire. Getting a 5 on your AP Spanish Language test when you are a native speaker says absolutely nothing to the admissions officer other than that yes, you are actually a native speaker. What talent does that show? What motivation, what passion? None. Just that you felt like showing up to take the test that morning. It simply shows, using 3 hours of your time and $80 of your money, that you are indeed fluent. Great.</p>
<p>Competence doesn't have to be earned the hard way. If you can walk into BC Calc and get a 5 without taking the class, by all means do it. You'll look like a genius. But to get a 5 on an exam that essentially tests fluency in a language when you grew up speaking that language makes you look like nothing more than a native speaker. That coupled with no language study during your high school career looks to me as an admissions officer to be an excuse for not taking a language. It shows you think the fact that you happened to be born in a different country/with parents who spoke another language to be sufficient enough to cover four years of challenging and rewarding study. That your 5 means you are as talented and motivated as the kid next to you who took Spanish since 7th grade, went on trips during her summers to Costa Rica and worked her ass off in AP Spanish Lit is. She got her 5 through talent and ability, you got yours through doing what most humans who don't have learning disabilities are able to do. You acquired basic communications skills. That's supposed to get you into Harvard?</p>
<p>If that's how you want to portray yourself, go ahead. Like I said, neglect that area of study. Go against what Harvard calls ideal. Just when you ask my advice on the matter, don't call me "totally wrong". It's just not necessary. Thanks.</p>
<p>You are totally wrong. It's not a matter of disagreement but of factual knowledge. I spelled out why you are wrong. I won't go into it again.</p>
<p>I know a great deal more about Harvard than you do. Got a kid there, H and I have Ph.D.s from there, and live close by. I talk to deans, profs, administrators and students all the time.
For the record, a student can place out of the foreign language requirement at Harvard by scoring 600 on the SAT-II. I know at least one student who's never taken a foreign language in his life and got accepted into Harvard, though he decided to go to MIT. His passion is for math and comp sci. That was good enough for the adcom.</p>
<p>That's great that you think that, but do you have to be obnoxious about it? I don't mind that you think you're right, I just mind that you exhibit disrespect towards me and what I think. But hey, who am I to talk to the big bad Harvard Graduate? I didn't know that diploma is an "I'm always right" ticket.</p>
<p>I don't know how you can call an idea I have a matter of factual inacurracy. I know students who've never taken a language course in their life and gotten into Harvard. And those students have other incredibly unique attributes that make them attractive applicants. This is not the majority of students. The majority of students, while very gifted, need as much help as they can to make them attractive candidates. Taking four years of rigorous English, Math, History, Science, and Foreign Language courses makes them attractive candidates. Do we agree on that?</p>
<p>So if a student is lacking one of those major fields of study, say Math, does taking extra English Lit classes at a local college make up for that deficit? I say it doesn't. Maybe a published novel would, but extra classes don't.</p>
<p>You pretty obviously read my second post about as closely as you read my first. The issue is not what one does with the language once one reaches Harvard/whatever school you want, the issue is the studying of the language as an important academic field. Placing out is irrelevant. I adressed why I wasn't wrong, but you insist on saying that I am wrong for the same reasons you said before. You know, the reasons I addressed. But hey, I must be wrong, I mean you know so much more about Harvard than I do. No reason to do all that reading and responding, no reason to pay that respect. Let your diploma do the talking.</p>
<p>So I'm done. If you're not going to pay me the respect of legitimately responding to anything I say, I'm not going to try and explain the basis for my opinion.</p>
<p>"Proficiency in a language other than English" and "acquired proficiency in a non-native language" are distinct credentials. That they both have value is true (see post #10) and entails no contradiction.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Because Harvard recommends . . . .
[/quote]
</p>
<p>There have been some great points already made in this thread about the value of foreign language experience (which for some applicants would be experience with English, their second language) as a preparation for college. I find it interesting that Harvard's reports to the Common Data Set Initiative, which seep out into the U.S. News guide to colleges, make clear that all high school curriculum recommendations for Harvard are just that, RECOMMENDATIONS, not strict requirements. In other words, any of those recommendations can be waived (and surely are every year) in light of other desirable characteristics an applicant has. Harvard doesn't force ANY applicant to take more courses than are reasonable for that applicant. But an applicant who is uninterested in learning (as contrasted with an applicant who is MOST interested in learning a particular subject) will not be a good fit for Harvard. I was a language major as an undergraduate, and to me it seems "natural" for a student to be self-motivated to study Greek and Latin at high school age, and to go to summer camps at which only a foreign language is permitted to be spoken. (Knowing a young person like that is one reason I hang out on this forum--I'm not sure our state's state university will be sufficiently intellectually engaging for this friend of my son.) But, yes, I know plenty of other young people whose strongest interest is my childhood interest--physics--and who don't have a lot of hours left in the day to pursue foreign languages. To each their own. Harvard looks for strong academic preparation for a challenging college environment. That doesn't have to come from high school classes (Harvard doesn't even require a high school diploma to apply). You don't have to be a clone of every other applicant. Harvard--and I have heard Harvard admission officers say this more than once, and it is also printed in Harvard publications--looks for "well lopsided" as well as "well rounded" students for each entering class. </p>
<p>One thing a science-interested kid could to learn something about foreign languages while pursuing his true interest is to try to find some scientific publications in another language. I became a foreign language major, in fact, because I was interested in languages to keep up with physics research. Then I set aside the pursuit of physics for the pursuit of languages. Any language is more interesting if you are learning something about a favorite subject while learning the language. I agree with any onlooker that high school courses usually don't serve up much reading matter like that, and that may be hard to find if you don't have ready access to a research university library, but ask around and see what is possible.</p>
<p>As Tokenadult mentioned, Harvard RECOMMENDs but does not require a certain curriculum. It makes exceptions all the time. Lots of internationals are admitted knowing only their native language besides English. The OP was suggesting demonstrating proficiency in his/her native language by taking the AP exam. I personally know of another student who was admitted without knowing any language other than English, comp sci not figuring as one. He stayed as my house while visiting Harvard and MIT. He decided on MIT, partly because of the foreign language requirement for those who did not place out.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I mean you know so much more about Harvard than I do.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, I do. I've had forty years in which to know about Harvard from the inside.</p>
<p>Since we are on the topic of foreign languages, would latin count as one? It's not exactly a modern language, but there are certain advantages in knowing it. Would it count as equally "impressive" as spoken languages such as French, Spanish, German, etc? I took both AP latin exams this year and got 5s while also receving a 7 on the IB.</p>