<p>It's not an assumption. I go to a fourth-tier uni; most of my classmates work long and hard hours--to the point where profs have to make some of the reading optional. I never said top-tier students don't work at all; I did point out that they typically work 10-15 hours a week at a work-study job that is often related to their field. </p>
<p>My friends who have graduated from top tier colleges have had tremendous difficulty in obtaining jobs after graduation and yes, even getting into top graduate schools. As a bachelor's degree decreases in value rapidly, so too does the value of completing one's undergrad at a name brand institution. What will continue to matter--to employers and grad school adcomms (which often consist of academics)--is one's experience and accomplishments.</p>
<p>I still think that it incorrect in may cases to assume that if students at top tier undergraduate schools work at all, they at work-study jobs for a few hours a week in jobs related to their field. That is just wrong. Yes, there are plenty of kids at top schools who don't work at all. Those students exist at third and fourth tier schools too, though, even though you may not personally see or know them. There are also plenty of students at top tier colleges who are taking out loans and working two jobs -- bartending, waitressing, whatever -- to pay for school. In fact, most work study jobs are in the dining halls, at the admissions office or in the library. I don't see how those jobs have anything to do with their chosen field. You can not attribute difference in law school admissions completely to your assumptions about the differing financial situation of the students at these schools. In some circumstances, your assumptions may certainly be true. In many circumstances, they are not. </p>
<p>Professors making reading assignments options is one reason why students from top undergrads may have an easier time getting into law school. Speaking from personal experience, none of my professors cared when I had two jobs and was taking 18 credits a semester. In fact, I would never have asked them or expected them to alter their standards to meet my personal needs. I got the school work done the best way I could and I made it through. For that matter, I don't understand why you think that the value of a bachelor's degree decreases in value rapidly. In my experience, what you learn undergrad serves you for the rest of your life, regardless of where you go to school. Your experience and what you get out of college is what you make it. No one spoon feeds it to you from a silver platter. You have to take advantage. Was I crazy to take 18 credits a semester? Maybe -- but since I was paying for school myself I thought it best to get my money's worth out of it. </p>
<p>Like it or not, while there are many, many successful people out there with degrees from undergrads you've never heard of (or no degrees at all), there are often a lot more opportunities out there for those with name brand degrees. Is it because someone learns more at a name brand school? I doubt it. However, right or wrong, law school admissions officers and many law firm employers do care where you went to school. That is a fact.</p>
<p>For the record, I never once said that there weren't poor students at top tier schools. I did say that top tier schools made more resources available to those students, which makes all the difference in the world. My sister, who attends a top 20 LAC, was able to do an internship during the school year with help from an institutional grant. Her work-study is in the mac lab at her school, where she assists in film and sound editing--a great fit for her, because she plans on going into entertainment. It's in the best interest of colleges to allocate student labor where they are best suited and therefore most productive. Therefore, it makes plenty of sense that they should gain work-study experience in their field. Furthermore, many top universities and college offer research assistantships as work study opportunities. These were the things that motivated me to apply to transfer this year.</p>
<p><<for that="" matter,="" i="" don't="" understand="" why="" you="" think="" the="" value="" of="" a="" bachelor's="" degree="" decreases="" in="" rapidly.="">>
It's called "diploma disease". When too many individuals seek out a particular degree or level of education, it decreases in value because it becomes the new standard. That is why various secretarial and administrative jobs require a bachelor's degree now instead of a high school diploma. While the actual work being performed has not changed, nor has the reward for performing it, the minimum standard of education for employment has. Therefore, the value/return on investment of a bachelor's degree has decreased.</for></p>
<p>I would agree that undergrad is what you make of it. But there is more to be made of a top-tier university education than there is at other schools.</p>
<p>Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, because I interpret all of your statements to mean that undergrad college name is meaningless. You've implied that the only value of going to a "name brand" school with respect to admissions to law school is that there are better resources and advisory services. Am I incorrect?</p>
<p>FWIW, a factor that hasn't been mentioned here is the student culture at name-brand schools and its influence on students' ambitions. Quite independent of the poor advising or the financial demands placed on a typical fourth-tier student, if you've never known anyone who went to a top-10 graduate school, and if the stars of your undergrad class are aiming for (at best) the state's main public law school, it just might not occur to you that mere mortals can get into Yale Law. It seems so distant and impossible, you don't even apply. At a name brand college, all your pre-law buddies who graduated last year are at top-10 law schools...so you know that that's an attainable goal, and you reach for it with great confidence.</p>
<p>That is certainly not what I meant when I described the decreasing value of an undergraduate degree; I was simply discussing an economic phenomenon in that instance.</p>
<p>However, you are not entirely incorrect. I believe that in the context of law and graduate school admissions, the advantages of attending a top-tier university derive primarily from the resources and opportunities that such institutions make available for use by their students. Of course, this is provided that the applicant has utilized these resources to the fullest as law/grad school adcomms look to see that applicants have made the most of wherever they have completed their undergraduate. </p>
<p>In the event of equally-qualified applicants (in terms of experience, accomplishments, stats, essays, recs, leadership, etc.), I will concede that attending a better-known university can act as a tiebreaker. However--and maybe I'm being a bit naive here--I do not think that a significant causal link exists between the "prestige" of a given institution and the acceptance of a given candidate.</p>
<p>I agree with what Hanna said about ambitions at lower ranked institiutions. I go to a large 3rd tier public and I feel like the majority here don't feel like they can go to a top grad school. There are currently 2 alumni from my university at HLS (according to their website), and that is out of the 35,000+ students that attend. I believe a major reason is ambition. </p>
<p>On a side note, my friend was talking about an aquaintance of his, who got into Harvard, like he was a god because of it. My friend is bright and I couldn't believe the way he acted like it was sooooo impossible. Sometimes I wonder if I have set my goals too high or other times I feel pretentious admitting I want to go to HLS. It must be MUCH different at a top school.</p>
<p>Although 2 of FSU studentd got in HLS, out of how many, I mean I recently moved here to Florida and many people here are just not ambitious and not intrested in going up north simply for the "prestiguous", so my question is.. Is it that harvard is harvard: meaning competitive studentd who want to pursue a a career where there's a lot of competition(um, law), or is it that not many florida students don't give a **** about Harvard and deciede to stay at one of the biggest party school in the country to have something to relieve the stress from Law school?</p>
<p>^I think it's certainly the case that there are a lot of FSU students who aren't making any effort to get into HLS. But I think a lot of that can again come from the environment they're in; when nobody you know has ever gone to HLS and none of your friends is even thinking about it, your expectations and plans are probably going to be different.</p>