<p>I've never been to college, so I wouldn't know, but it seems like people (and colleges' publications) emphasize class size/student-to-faculty ratio an awful lot. I get that it can be good to have more individualized and family-like classes, but should that be one of the most important factors, and should we want all of our classes to be like that?</p>
<p>I don't mean this to sound like a loaded question. I really don't know.</p>
<p>That is a reasonable question to ask, because smaller classes (all else being equal) do drive up the cost of education. Most of the 50 or so highest-ranking, most selective (and usually, most expensive) colleges and universities boast S:F ratios of 10:1 or better. At most of them, 60% or more of classes have fewer than 20 students. At many of them, 70% or more do.<br>
[50</a> Top Colleges](<a href=“http://www.50topcolleges.com/]50”>http://www.50topcolleges.com/)</p>
<p>Of the 50 schools listed on that site, the least expensive subset is the public universities. These schools also tend to have the largest average class sizes and highest S:F ratios of the 50. However, if you can place out of the big intro classes, you should be able to find many small classes taught by excellent professors at these schools as well (especially in less popular majors).
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=14910283[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=14910283</a></p>
<p>In my opinion, of all the quality features we know how to measure, average class size is one of the most important. Other people will disagree. It depends on your goals, your learning style, how comfortable you are with small group discussions, and how much feedback you want from your professors.</p>
<p>Interestingly, at my child’s college, despite an absurdly low published class size, EVERY single class (except four) in five semesters have been significantly above the “average” class size.</p>
<p>If you are looking into a college because of small class sizes, DO NOT believe the published stats; rather ask students at that school their class size.</p>
<p>And, my child says that smaller classes (30ish or less) in general provide a better environment to learn (not a hard and fast rule, just generally) with the profs more engaged when compared to 100+ class size</p>
<p>But note that average class size may not say the whole story about the distribution of class sizes. The school’s average class size will be smaller than most students’ averages for class size, since the students’ averages will be weighted in favor of the larger classes. (That likely explains the situation in the first paragraph of post #3.)</p>
<p>For example, if there is one class with 100 students and nine classes with 10 students, the average class size for the school will be 19. But the 190 students will have an average class size of 57, because 100 of them will be in the 100 student class and only 90 of them will be in the 10 student classes.</p>
<p>If you really want to know how big the classes are, see if the school in question has an on-line schedule of classes listing the capacity of each class. Look up the classes you will likely take (check the course plan for your intended or possible major(s) for that).</p>
<p>Also, classes get smaller as you reach more specialized upper division courses. If you are already advanced in subjects for your major, you may take fewer lower division courses, so you may lower the priority of lower division class sizes in your college search.</p>
<p>These answers are helpful, but none of them has really answered how important class size should be (except the middle paragraph of stemit’s), only how small the classes people take typically are at different colleges and levels.</p>
<p>
Do colleges publish “average class size” this way? It seems to be a rather meaningless number. I think most, if not all, of them define class sizes as in post #2.</p>
<p>There is a lot of “it depends” in the answer. A small class (under 30, preferably under 20) can be more discussion-based than lecture-based, although that is not necessarily true for all small classes.</p>
<p>How valuable being discussion-based versus lecture-based depends on both the student and the subject. Some subjects pretty much have to be small and/or discussion-based, such as beginning foreign language courses or lab sessions. On the other hand, some subjects can be taught well in lecture format (and [people</a> willingly fill up large auditoriums to hear/see a famous speaker talk about something of interest](<a href=“http://tamunews.tamu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Hawking-event.jpg]people”>http://tamunews.tamu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Hawking-event.jpg)).</p>
<p>However, most college subjects do benefit from some discussion-based class sessions, even if the main class is lecture-based. The big research universities typically have lower division courses taught in lecture format by faculty, with graduate student teaching assistants leading discussion sections (and labs, if any) associated with the courses.</p>
<p>Yes, that means that small discussion-based courses led by faculty are probably better in the general case, but the trade-off is that they consume more faculty time on lower division courses, reducing the number of upper division courses that the faculty can offer.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>However, the calculation typically used misleads, as the first paragraph in post #3 indicates. Giving the average of class sizes that any given student is likely to encounter is more realistic from a (prospective) student point of view.</p>
<p>It may depend on how you learn. Obviously you get less personal attention in large classes, but by the time you get into your major classes usually get smaller even at schools with large class sizes. Also, at my Ds university classes like intro science have huge lecture sections but small labs and recitations. Freshman seminars and english are also usually kept small. Sometimes, though, in some gen ed classes that you’re not thrilled about, a large class means you can be more invisible and maybe attendance not so monitored! </p>
<p>I would agree that it’s important to ask specifically about your major and how soon after intro classes do the classes start getting smaller. Ask to sit in on both type and see what feels right to you.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Again, I think it depends on your goals, your learning style, how comfortable you are with small group discussions, and how much feedback you want from your professors.</p>
<p>If your main objective is to get a credential at the lowest possible cost, then small classes probably aren’t too important to you. Look for a low-cost public university, or for a less selective private school that offers merit money for someone with your qualifications. Chances are, many of the classes will be large. Grades may be based primarily on multiple-choice or fill-in the blank tests. Professors won’t know your name. However, you can still get a degree. If you pay attention and work hard, you can learn a lot, too. </p>
<p>Why would you want to attend small classes taught by experienced, accomplished professors? Small class size makes it easier for the professor to read and comment on significant writing assignments, as well as discuss content with you in class. This is a more active, engaged way to learn than if you’re sitting in the back of a 200-student lecture hall. It’s also an opportunity to get to know someone who may be able to help you get an internship or make an effective recommendation for grad school.</p>
<p>An excellent professor can make a large lecture class engaging and informative. However, I’m not sure the average student couldn’t learn more just by reading the professor’s books, going to the TA with questions as necessary, and showing up at the end of the term for the exam.</p>
<p>
That’s not what she says (“EVERY single class (except four) in five semesters have been significantly above the “average” class size.”)</p>
<p>In your example, let’s say each of the 190 students took 5 classes that semester. They would have at least four classes with 10 students, significanlty below the average size (19).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Those nine 10-student classes have a capacity of 90 students, so the 190 students won’t all fit in them, even taking just one each, much less five.</p>
<p>Universities typically offer thousands of classes each semester, so just scale your example up by a factor of 100 or more.</p>
<p>The result is the same, if you scale up the number of classes by five (i.e. five 100 student classes and forty five 10 student classes) and have each student in five classes. There are 500 seats in the 100 student classes, and 450 seats in the 10 student classes (total of 950 seats for 190 students).</p>
<p>And the result is still the same if you scale up the classes and students by any multiple you wish.</p>
<p>Interestingly, at my child’s college, despite an absurdly low published class size, EVERY single class (except four) in five semesters have been significantly above the “average” class size.</p>
<p>I agree. My grad school son has taken an undergrad class for fun each semester. His school publishes very low ratios, yet in truth, may of the lower division classes are quite large. One semester, there weren’t enough seat in the room…25 kids had to sit on the floor…until a fire hazard was realized and they moved to a bigger room.</p>
<p>Small class sizes at least give the professor the opportunity to really teach instead of just lecture. If the small class sizes translate into an interactive learning experience then very important. If the small classes are just a bored professor impatient to get back to her research presenting a lecture, then it doesn’t much matter whether there are 30 or 300 kids present.</p>
<p>Class size is really often a proxy for how much personal attention faculty give to undergraduates. So it’s not just about the classroom experience. There is a big difference in attending a prof’s office hours when you are the only one he or she is talking to, vs. office hours where there are 20 students hoping to get some attention. Likewise, if you are looking for opportunities to do research for a prof you really like, it’s going to be much easier if you are one of the top students in a class of 25 as opposed to one of the top students in a class of 250.</p>
<p>I also think lots of schools ‘game’ the student/faculty ratios. If they require students to take language classes, for example, that tends to lower the ratio by forcing kids into classes that are, granted, small - but not very interesting intellectually. They are often taught by contacted faculty rather than the universities tenured staff (who wants to teach Spanish 1 and 2 after all?). There are many other ways to ‘game’ the numbers. Your best bet is to look at the class sizes for the intro courses because those are the ones you are likely to be in for the first 2 years.</p>
<p>That said, not every class benefits from being small. Some people actually prefer large lectures as a matter of learning style. Some people hate listening to peers ramble on in discussion groups and would rather here the prof talk. Some technical classes don’t lend themselves to discussion. So in the end, it depends on your learning style, your major, and whether you are sufficiently advanced to skip big intro classes.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The common-sensical notion is that small class sizes are better because professors are able to give students more attention, and as a result, they learn much better. The evidence to support that is a bit shaky however. Some studies have supported that small class sizes do make an important difference, others have reported that this difference is largely negligible. </p>
<p>Here are a few articles you can read if you’re interested:</p>
<p>[Some</a> Findings from an Independent Investigation of the Tennessee STAR Experiment and from Other Investigations of Class Size Effects | Eric A. Hanushek](<a href=“http://hanushek.stanford.edu/publications/some-findings-independent-investigation-tennessee-star-experiment-and-other]Some”>Some Findings from an Independent Investigation of the Tennessee STAR Experiment and from Other Investigations of Class Size Effects | Eric A. Hanushek)</p>
<p>[Study:</a> Class size doesn’t matter - The Washington Post](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/study-class-size-doesnt-matter/2012/01/28/gIQAaiZAYQ_blog.html]Study:”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/study-class-size-doesnt-matter/2012/01/28/gIQAaiZAYQ_blog.html)</p>
<p>[Leonie</a> Haimson: The 7 Myths of Class Size Reduction – And the Truth](<a href=“HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost”>The 7 Myths of Class Size Reduction -- And the Truth | HuffPost New York)</p>
<p>As far as my opinion on the matter goes, whether it matters or not depends on the person. There are certainly some people out there who greatly would have benefited from more personal interaction with professors. For certain students in my classes, the material was hard and confusing. It really would have helped them to have someone hold their hand. Others (like myself) generally can understand enough in lecture and readings that personalized interaction and hand-holding isn’t necessary. That’s not to say that i wouldn’t have benefited from more personalized interaction. My writing abillty surely would have improved in such an environment. But in the end i still learned to write well, even if the route that led me there was essentially trial and error. </p>
<p>So again, it depends on a given person’s wants, needs, and (probably most importantly) what they’re able to afford.</p>
<p>^ Those studies are limited almost entirely to elementary education. I’m not sure the issues are the same.</p>
<p>Even if they are, to some extent, I’m skeptical of the Dobbie and Freyer findings (see the Washington Post link above). While it may be true that “frequent teacher feedback” or “high-dosage tutoring” - not small class size, per se - lead to better outcomes, how do schools deliver those benefits in overcrowded conditions? </p>
<p>I think what several critics really are suggesting is that small classes are a necessary - but not sufficient - condition for certain good outcomes. annasdad suggested as much above. Small classes are beneficial (and worth the extra cost) only if the professor is also good, if the students are motivated, the material is appropriate, and so forth.</p>
<p>IMHO - I know my learning style. I prefer discussion based courses.</p>
<p>My son is considering a STEM major. I think class size is not as important for this major. Many of his 1st year courses will be lecture based with black & white facts. The lab sizes are much more important to me in the STEM majors. Tutorials and study session size is important to me for a STEM major. </p>
<p>So, I think “How important class size should be” must be considered in detail of major, tutoring resources and individual undergraduate’s learning style.</p>
![http://tamunews.tamu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Hawking-event.jpg]people](http://tamunews.tamu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Hawking-event.jpg%5Dpeople){kind=link}
