I’ve noticed most of the private schools we are considering have the traditional math sequence of Algebra 1/Geometry/Algebra II. Our public school system does Integrated Math I, II, and III instead. Most 8th graders take Integrated Math I so they can stay on track to do pre-cal in 11th and calculus in 12th.
Just wondering how those of you whose kids have come from a similar situation and taken Integrated Math I in 8th grade have worked out math placement for 9th grade. Would most schools count Integrated Math I as Algebra I and allow kids to start with Geometry in 9th, or do they insist on the Algebra I credit taken in 9th? How has it worked out, if your kid did go straight into Geometry for 9th? I know that Integrated Math teaches out of sequence a bit so I am unclear how much Integrated Math lines up with Algebra I. Would they be missing some of the algebra concepts by having had the integrated math course?
My main concern is if Algebra I has to be taken in 9th, it then eliminates the option do do calculus in 12th. It seems like calculus in senior year is expected more and more by colleges these days…
Pretty much every school will place as a result of the placement exam regardless of most recent math course. It is not uncommon for students to repeat their last math course.
And most schools have a pathway to calc even for those starting with Algebra I.
For the specifics of how or if integrated math prepared for the placement test, I’ll leave to someone with firsthand experience.
I have experience with two different daughters going from IM to regular sequenced math. It’s late and will reply tomorrow but wanted to tell you at least that I know this path well!
Pretty much all schools use placement tests for math instead of just going by the name of the previous classes taken; it won’t matter whether your kiddo has taken a class called “Algebra” as long as they can demonstrate mastery of the algebra material. For new students who have been in a non-traditional math progression it can be a good idea to send the department head a brief email when the placement test is submitted giving them a heads up about the system your kid is coming from so they know the placement decision might need some extra review.
Most schools have a way to get to calculus by senior year even if starting with algebra in 9th. Many also have several varieties of Algebra/geometry/advanced algebra/trig/pre-calc courses that offer various combos of material and paces for students who are coming from different tracks and proficiencies. So even if a school doesn’t use an integrated curriculum they may have class options that will fit 9th & 10th grade students coming from one.
Echoing others, they will rely on a placement test.
AND most will keep an eye on performance and move kids to a difference class if the placement was wrong. I recall when DS was a freshman that the school had several levels of math meeting concurrently so that a math move didn’t require any schedule changes.
This is one thing that is likely very different from where most people come from where there were only a few math tracks. Kids come in from all kinds of curricula. The BS have ways to deal with that and to ensure that kids with aptitude will be able to excel even if they didn’t get a head start in middle school.
When you have acceptances in hand, this is a reasonable question to ask at the schools you are considering. Some do this better than others.
Thank you, everyone! This is helpful to hear re: placement.
This question stems from a larger decision we are currently trying to make when selecting a middle school for our daughter. We have two options on the table:
very demanding academic magnet 6-12 school that is the top public school in our state and consistently falls anywhere between top 5 and top 20 ranked in the country…absolutely no one in our county turns an offer from this school down (but she would need to reapply for 9-12, so no guarantee to continue on for high school and would be under immense pressure to maintain top grades and test scores to continue on…hence, our looking at how courses would transfer over to private schools)
day student at a small 6-12 boarding school: not a top ranked, in demand boarding school but very respectable academics and seems like it would be a perfect fit for developing our daughter into a wonderful student and person overall (no need to reapply, so she would feel settled at this school from the start)
Money and logistics (commute, etc) all point towards saying yes to the magnet school, but trying to take into account what would be the best fit for our daughter while also thinking through what happens if we have to move her elsewhere for high school.
And because I feel this decision ties into our high school decision so largely, I can’t help but also think about what each school would mean for college admissions, as they are so different in terms of size (class of 200 vs 50-70).
Personally I don’t think kids need high stress in grades 6-8. I think that’s time for them to grow and learn and be happy. Actually I think the highschool stress of top BS is way too much as well but I’m already stuck.
Both my kids went to low stress, not fantastic, public middle schools. Both stood out. Both got into what’s considered tippy top BS.
The one caveat I’ll give is that I thought writing needed more help than teachers gave so I supplemented learning to write well (but that was easy for me). Math instruction was minimal but both my kids are mathy types so they learned on their own and caught up in highschool easily.
The middle school years can be tough years for lots of reasons, so I would really focus on fit and where your D will be happiest and have the bandwidth to develop both in and out of the classroom. If she’s exploring interests, now is a great time to do that. Social life becomes more important.
I think you are right to be looking down the road but I think you need to frame this a bit differently. I would suggest that you think about how the alternatives preserve options.
I am not a fan of pressure cooker schools. For many students - even those who aren’t getting this pressure at home --, the emphasis shifts to outperforming classmates from real curiosity and joy of learning. It discourages risk taking and exploring. And fwiw, I think many college AOs see this too – so while most of these kids will be able to do the work at any top school, far fewer will actually have developed a genuine desire for education. This is a generalization, but I’d think it through carefully before putting a kid - at an age where peer pressure is especially powerful-- into this environment. Since you would have to test in in a few years, you aren’t missing anything by not enrolling now.
I would add that one consideration in choosing the smaller school at 6th is she may develop connections and want to stay. It doesn’t sound like that is a problem.
While you didn’t mention it, there is also BS (as a boarder) as an option for 9th. That opens up a whole new universe of possibilities.
Thanks all for the great points to consider. I have the same concerns about choosing a pressure cooker school. The private school where she could be a day student for 6-12 seems like it would be a great fit for her…though it is SO small that it could go either way if she doesn’t find her “people” there.
Another issue we are considering is finances. We will qualify for some financial aid at the private school, which brings the cost into an “affordable” range on paper. We can definitely make it work, but it does mean we may feel our budget is a bit tighter in terms of extras we may spend on extracurriculars or travel, and some financial goals will be pushed back (our mortgage would be paid off in 8 years rather than 4, we may delay getting a new car, etc). My husband’s family all lives in Europe and his father’s cancer returned during the pandemic, and after 2.5 years of not seeing them, we are feeling like we may need to take more trips over there in the next few years to make up for missed time, so this is another huge consideration for us right now.
Our LPS is not an option for us for middle school as they have recently had students arrested for making threats and bringing guns to school. There was an incident at a school dance a few months back that was completely traumatizing for students attending, and we basically committed to making the private school work after that.
Truthfully, if we had all the money in the world, we would likely choose the private school. But the free academic magnet school could at least save us three years of tuition (and the location is SO convenient…it’s right next door to the magnet elementary school that our rising 3rd grader attends). Our son will be entering 6th grade the year that my daughter would enter 9th, and we have considered switching to the private school then. With financial aid, it would cost the same to send two as it would one, and then they would be in the same place and we wouldn’t have to drive in two different directions to get them there. That is likely the right choice for us logistically and financially, but is it the right choice for our daughter academically given the high-stress magnet environment and the questions about whether she would be thrown off the 12th grade calculus track…I don’t know.
A number of students at my DD’s BS were placed into Algebra I rather than Geometry. Many of those kids are doubling up on math in 10th grade since Algebra II doesn’t rely on many hard Geometry skills … the logical thinking and rigor of proofs is beneficial but not a requirement. They’ll then be on track for 12th grade Calc.
I’d focus your decision on selecting the best middle school for your child and family. Don’t try to choose a high school right now, and don’t make a decision about where to go for 6th grade based on a hypothetical calculus class 7 years down the road. Far too much will change in the next few years to do that. Even for students in K-12 or 6-12 schools I think it’s best for families to plan on looking at other schools at the natural entry/exit points to evaluate whether it’s still the best place for them. Applications are a pain and scary, but I want my kids to learn to change course when the current one is no longer ideal even if that change is uncomfortable and takes work.
At the same time, if you choose the magnet school I would try to actively discourage thinking about “continuing on” or tons of pressure to do so. Don’t let middle school become a 3-year-long entry exam for high school in her mind or yours. I’d aim for a message of “When the time comes we’ll look at high schools. Focus on working hard and being you and I have no doubt you’ll get in somewhere perfect for you.”
As for the math, I think you’re worrying too much about this. Integrated math I offers a great foundation in algebraic and geometric thinking and problem solving. There are multiple ways to merge into a traditional math pathway and still reach calculus by senior year, including supplementing during the summer after 8th to fill in any unlearned algebra topics, accelerated courses offered by secondary schools, summer courses, or doubling up math one year. To put your mind at ease you might even reach out to the magnet school and ask about past student experiences merging back into a traditional path. It’s definitely not a novel thing.
It seems that the thread has taken a different focus, but just for future readers, I’ll address the original question about going from integrated math (IM) to traditional sequenced math.
I had two daughters do this when they went to BS.
The issue with IM is that each year you get a little bit of algebra, a little bit of geometry, a little bit of trig, and it scaffolds and builds, and by the time you get to pre-calc/calc, you’ve covered the same material as one would in the traditional sequenced math.
That’s fine except that if you jump tracks before getting to calculus, you might have 30% or 50% or 70% of EACH of those topics, but not 100% of any one of them on their own.
First daughter was a couple of years ahead in math, and she went to Andover. She tested into their normal 9th grade math track, which was, if I am remembering correctly, also an IM approach. So that was “easy.” IM to IM. Then, she transferred to Mercersburg, where they have a traditional sequenced math. She tested and did well, even though she was missing a bit of geometry content. But, she had most of the preliminary content completed since she was ahead compared to her fellow 8th grade peers. Anyway…So she is a sophomore now taking honors pre-calc. However, she is aware that she has a small geometry gap, so she knows she might have to get some additional help if that gap shows up going forward in to calculus next year.
Second daughter (now freshman) was right at her grade level when she was in 8th grade. So, much earlier in the IM spiral but still on track to take Calculus as a senior (were she to stay in our school system). She also ended up choosing Mercersburg, so traditional sequence. So she goes to take her math placement test, and she tests at say 25% of algebra coverage and 35% of full-year geometry mastery. (these are must made up numbers). The point is: she has not fully mastered either one of those subjects on their own to consider the classes are completed. What to do? Start at Algebra 1 as a freshman? She would lose a year compared to her old track. Take one of the two maths over the summer? Not ideal since she wants to be a STEM student in college, so she really wants solid foundation. (Plus: gosh a year of geometry during a summer when you finally get to relax a bit felt not great to me.) So the solution ended up being: she is taking both math classes now as a freshman, and she received special permission to push her foreign language requirement down the road a year. I feel much better about her having to catch up on her French at some point than math. (So she will maybe do summer school, or maybe a summer abroad program in a year or two? not sure). (Side note: my daughter now LOVES math! She has now joined the math club and she told us at parents weekend that she is “so sad” when geometry class ends because it is just so interesting and fun. So, I say: win-win on the algebra 1 + Geometry front! she is living her best life taking two math classes she adores right now.)
Anyway – all that to say: the IM/traditional sequencing track-jump isn’t super clean or easy, but it’s doable. You do have to put the math placement tests into context however. Had we just blindly accepted the results that showed that our DD2 wasn’t ready to go past algebra 1, then she would have lost a year, which would have been a huge bummer for her come college time.
Thanks for giving actual detailed examples of two different ways for this to play out. As IM and accelerating into HS math early both become more and more common I suspect there will be plenty of other parents worrying about possible school changes. Hopefully they’ll find their way to your girls’ stories through a search. On a positive note, I’ve observed students who take IM really do tend to develop a very solid base of mathematical thinking to build on even when content areas may end up needing to be filled in. For students who need/choose to go on into more advanced math studies I think they’re better served by that situation than kids who memorized equations, rules & procedures but don’t actually get the underlying concepts.
I also think the note about actively working with the department in regards to placement and potential options is an important one. Fortunately, in my experience, math departments tend to be the most adaptable and ready to work to find the right plan for each student.
Wow, thank you for sharing both experiences. This is super helpful! I hadn’t even considered that it may be possible to get permission to take both Algebra and Geometry at the same time. If we did switch between systems, my main concern really is any gaps in content that IM 1 would not have fully covered yet, so this is a great option to consider.
Will paying tuition (and perhaps expenses related to the less favorable commute) at the private school require a significantly smaller price limit for the student’s choice of college? If so, consider how much of an impact such a smaller price limit will have in finding a better fit (for factors other than financial) college for the student.
That’s a good question/point! Because we have another child who would have three years of high school remaining when our oldest goes to college, a very expensive private college would be difficult for us while also paying private high school tuition. Not impossible, since we will be mortgage-free at that point, but I can’t say it wouldn’t influence how we approached our budget.
My husband and I both teach at public universities, so we are fortunate enough to have guaranteed half-off tuition/fees at any public university in our state, so I know we will have affordable options to choose from…but whether they are the best fit options for our kids, who knows…
Perhaps run some net price calculators at various colleges based on the anticipated financial situations (for both private and public high school) when your first kid applies to college to get an idea of what their net prices may be like (don’t limit them to the most selective private colleges, some of which give much better need-based financial aid than others; choose colleges up and down the selectivity range). In other words, try to estimate what limits the cost of private high school are likely to impose on college choice.
High academic private high schools (which often have lots of students from wealthy families) often tend to steer students to private colleges more than public schools (including the better ones). Consider whether it can be socially awkward for your kid if she knows that she will be headed to an in-state public due to cost limits, while all of her friends from wealthy families are choosing between various expensive colleges without worrying about the cost.
This could definitely be an issue, for sure. I have also wondered if my kids would feel bad if they couldn’t sign up for some of the optional extras that a lot of kids do (trips abroad, etc).
While there are certainly some schools where integrating with wealthy peers is a bigger issue most prep schools work on this pretty hard. And of course there’s the whole real life issue.
I absolutely don’t think going to a public university is “socially awkward” unless your kid is the most sensitive least secure kid I’ve ever met. My older kid chose a totally off base, non standard university coming out of a top prep and it wasn’t awkward in any way. It was pretty nice on the wallet too.
At even the “stingiest” of BS, about a third of the students are getting FA, so it is highly unlikely that a child choosing colleges based on cost will be unusual.