<p>People here and on the College Search and Selection forum have helped my daughter narrow down her list. Thank you!
Here is how it stands now:</p>
<p>(undecided major, straight A with hardest avail. courses, athletic and arts for major ec's, mid-1400/2100 SAT)</p>
<p>In no particular order:</p>
<p>Wm. and Mary
Rice
UMich
Holy Cross
Villanova
Conn College
U Richmond
Colgate
Carleton
Kenyon
(in-state U as safety)</p>
<p>U Michigan and William & Mary are out of state, so admission and aid might be difficult but she visited and liked these schools.
Likely won't get to visit most of the others until after acceptances.
Likes Dartmouth and Williams, but probably too reachy. </p>
<p>Looks fine to me. Especially if she gets an early response from Mich, Vill, and in state U so that she is not holding her breath over the others. For some of those schools, however, a visit might make a difference in admissions. Holy Cross outright told us so. Kenyon, Carleton, Conn College, U Rich, Colgate are also ones I suspect would feel that way.</p>
<p>With William & Mary, the problem is that it only admits up to 34 percent from out of state -- this is not the school's decision but dictated by the Virginia General Assembly. </p>
<p>OP, do you buy lottory tickets? Could you afford extra application fees? If teh answers are "yes", your child should apply to at least one or two super reaches. </p>
<p>Too many cases on CC this season that kids like your child got in top 5 schools.</p>
<p>If she likes Dartmouth and Williams, I see no reason why she shouldn't give either or both a shot. It sounds like she's a viable candidate at either. Be aware that the Williams supplement does not include an essay, but mostly, IIRC, questions about legacy. The Dartmouth supplement gives the student a lot more opportunity to describe themselves. Both schools ask for a peer evaluation. (I think it is "optional" at W, but we all suspect that that means "required"! ) </p>
<p>BTW, since you mention aid, I would also note that Carleton is "90% need-aware." Apparently what that means is that they accept the top 90% of the class need-blind, then look at the remaining 10% in the context of need. D and W are both need-blind, and promise to meet 100% of demonstrated need with no student loans. (Of course, different colleges look at need differently, and no student loans doesn't mean no parental loans...:) ) In my experience, D is very generous, C less so. C isn't mean, they just have a smaller endowment per student.</p>
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OP, do you buy lottory tickets? Could you afford extra application fees? If teh answers are "yes", your child should apply to at least one or two super reaches.
<p>Yes, she likes the state financial/admission safety. Well enough, at least.</p>
<p>It is difficult to know what to do about the reaches. I know some of them have excellent aid, and we are middle class, but I do still worry about the level of difficulty. This was discussed somewhat in a thread about a year ago, but the thread imploded in a controversy about financial aid among the posters so I have been mostly lurking. I did very much appreciate all of the viewpoints though, and have learned a lot, I think. I hope. </p>
<p>I think most of the schools on this list are sort of in the middle as far as intensity/competitiveness. Some of them are difficult, but maybe not so much as the reachiest of places? My daughter is very academically non-fretting, low key. She likes challenges, but I don't know how her happy laidback persona would be at those lottery places even if she did get in. The aid is tempting, but I just don't know...<br>
The aid situation feels like a lottery. Some of the schools listed are smaller than ideal, or more isolated, but she is adaptable as long as people are friendly. The financial situation trumps perfection of every detail. Its scary.</p>
<p>If D is applying to Conn College, she'll have to take SAT IIs anyway, so why not give Williams and Dartmouth a shot. Too bad OP and D can't visit, since I think that would help with the LACs.</p>
<p>As for reach schools being less expensive than the match school - - not necessarily. All of the finaid packages will be based on need, and I don't think any of the schools on the list is a no-loan (ie: awards only grants) school, so all packages will be a combination of loan and grant. </p>
<p>The composition will vary from school to school, but often a school will try to induce a top student by offering a package that is mostly grants. At a reach school, the applicant is less likely to get the more favorable grant/loan ratio. </p>
<p>Also, some of the 2nd tier schools have a lower sticker price. Tuition and room/board at Clark, in Worcester, MA, for example, is about $36K compared to $46K at the top LACs. And iat a "lesser" school she may be elig for merit $.</p>
<p>OP, I know little about most of the schools on your list. I hope you will not be offended by what I say. Your D's stat is solid for admission to all universities but may not be "high" enough for the very competitive merit scholarships at top 25 Universities. Based on our experiences, most of the need based aid is not very good for a middle class family.</p>
<p>The exceptions are those handful schools with over $10 Billion endowments. The need based aid from Stanford brought tears to my eys. </p>
<p>IMHO, any middle class kids without high stat to compete for merit aid should not apply to match schools. You could get in but you may have a hard time paying the bills. </p>
<p>So, one should either go high or low. OTOH, if you do not have problem paying $30K a year, go for it. However, think about it twice before sending in the deposit. The COA will go up every year and the FA package may not keep up. Some schools will manage the increase with loans only.</p>
<p>I like the list. I think she will get many acceptances from it. I don't think Williams and Dartmouth (or other similar) are too reachy for her profile. I also don't think that schools where academics are "more intense" necessarily equate to schools which are the most reach-y. Definitely a relationship, but I don't think it's a straight line. If she wants to try for such schools, she can apply and, if accepted, visit. A correctly-done visit will give her a feel for academic intensity/pressure.</p>
<p>Keep in mind: "Above a reasonably good level of mental ability, above that indicated by a 550-600 level of S.A.T. score," Bender [former Harvard Dean of Admissions] went on, "the only thing that matters in terms of future impact on, or contribution to, society is the degree of personal inner force an individual has." from gladwell</a> dot com - getting in. Those are probably old style SAT scores which would translate to 620-670V and 560-600M today.</p>
<p>I disagree with the idea that you will get more aid the lower you go in terms of selectivity. Our experience--admittedly it is only one case, but it is illustrative--was that the most selective school gave the most aid, and the least selective school gave the least aid. Even with a 4-year merit scholarship and "need-based" aid, the cost of attending was about 4 times higher. The less selective school simply may not have the money to give.</p>
<p>I would suggest that the best course is to apply to a full range of schools including a financial safety if you can find one, and wait to see a) where she gets in, and b) how much it will eventually cost to attend, including a possible appeal phase. Then decide. </p>
<p>If you can somehow avoid having your kid fall in love with a school that she may not be able to get into or afford during this process, so much the better. Explaining that being able to attend depends on FA before the applications are filled out is probably a good idea.</p>
<p>There's a thread on here somewhere about "financial aid myths. " It's worth reading.</p>
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Our experience--admittedly it is only one case, but it is illustrative--was that the most selective school gave the most aid, and the least selective school gave the least aid.
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</p>
<p>Exactly. It's a rich-get-richer phenomenon, and it's real. There's a huge incentive, if you are in the 4.0 700+ category, to apply to tippy-top schools.</p>
<p>I didn't mean to suggest that in all cases the less selective school gives the most money, just that in can be more difficult to qualify for merit $ in a more competitive pool. </p>
<p>The thread of finaid myths is worth viewing, as is the thread on schools with good merit aid. Many top schools don't give any merit awards. In the case of HYP, many families that wouldn't qualify at other schools will be eligible for very generous need-based packages (grants only, home equity no a factor, etc.), so for most it's probably a wash. In the case of schools like BMC, more traditional need-based aid is the only option.</p>
<p>Finally, not sure whether Williams and Dartmouth are "too" reachy, but both schools are so selective that they aren't really considered "match" schools for anyone. Heck, I can't recall when Williams (usually duking it out w/ Amherst for #1 slot on most lists) was rated lower than #3 on the USN&WR LAC list.</p>