<p>Schoolhouse,</p>
<p>In order for Harvard to stop sharing revenue with the other Ivy League schools or to stop enforcing the academic Index recruitment rules they would probably have to resign from the Ivy League. I just dont see this happening.</p>
<p>don’t those indexes off-set one another?</p>
<p>which makes a player with an ACT in the 18-21 range an offset against two that are 30+?</p>
<p>I’m speaking from the AAU world of basketball and I’d venture to say that each one of the eight Ivies has at least two exceptions and I know one graduated from Columbia in '12. However; the concern over five special admits to the basketball team pales in comparison to Ivy legacy admits where the index pool is larger if that even matters. Aren’t those admits totally at the discretion of the school without taking merit into consideration and those numbers are surely larger than the total basketball and football team rosters combined. (one '16 admit was interviewed for Harvard by her mom who was on the Committee—I don’t know her ACT/but I do know she struggled in a competitive all-girls school)</p>
<p>I don’t want to discuss the merits of schools and endowments, because in the midwest we have strong, fully funded state universities and research institutions versus the New England model of education now our universities aren’t as old,because we were in the unexplored hinterlands when the settlers established their education systems.</p>
<p>again Yale might be the Ivy exception, they seem to be anti-anything that isn’t about academia, I don’t know if that is true for the other schools Princeton has recruited like crazy to compete and finally win the 2013 NCAA fencing championship, Brown has sought external funding in order to keep it’s sports teams, Cornell and UPenn are both investing in new facilities for the team and to attract students, so don’t discount how important those successes are in visibility & desirability for those seeking a complete college experience. Ask an Northeasterner who has attended a football game with 80000+ screaming fans at Notre Dame, U of Michigan, OSU how important those moments are in the collegiate experience and the exposure they generate is priceless.</p>
<p>schoolhouse,</p>
<p>You are confusing athletics with business. These 8 Ivy teams are a in a business venture together, and doing just fine with their unique branding. They just signed a multi-year, multi-sport TV contract with MSNBC to add to their already well known brand. Ivy athletics is in growth mode, but in no way will these schools allow themselves to be run by an AD or Coach. The Ivy College Presidents have seen the mistakes of their big sport brethren, and there is no way they will repeat them. If anything was to happen with the Ivy League, I could see them breaking away from the NCAA rather a school or two leaving the Ivy for $$. When you think about it, what does the NCAA really provide Ivy League schools athletically? An automatic bid into an NCAA regional event where typically the ivy team is beaten soundly? Penn lost to Texas A&M in the first round of NCAA softball tournament 12-0 last night in 5 innings (slaughter rule). This is a business, and I’m saying the Ivy League pays the NCAA to be affiliated with them. What exactly are they getting in return overall? I don’t know the numbers, but common sense tells me the Ivys would do just fine without the NCAA affiliation. </p>
<p>Many kids across the world aspire to go to one of these schools for the education, networking and opportunity to do something different. Athletics is just a way to supplement that brand not the other way around as you have in some of the other large musical chair conferences. Yes, there are differences among the schools but at the end of the day it is about a unique commitment to education that nobody else in the world can offer. </p>
<p>There have been a few recent national successes in Ivy athletics, but I don’t think for one second H or anyone feels they need to try to be like all the other D1 schools to make a money grab. The money comes to them, and they don’t have to do much (except fund a team). </p>
<p>On the athletic side, I’m willing to bet most Ivy athletics had other athletic options to choose from. They chose the Ivy League because their was a self realization that I really like my sport, but I have other more valuable skill sets to offer the world.</p>
<p>Schoolhouse,</p>
<p>I believe the floor for the AI is currently set at 176 for an individual athlete. This translates to a SAT score of about 1440 assuming a 4.0 GPA.</p>
<p>Fenway,</p>
<p>Unless there are major changes no Ivy league school will leave the NCAA. </p>
<p>“When you think about it, what does the NCAA really provide Ivy League schools athletically?”</p>
<p>The opportunity to participate in a national championship. Ask any Ivy League swimmer and they will tell you this is their goal.</p>
<p>“This is a business, and I’m saying the Ivy League pays the NCAA to be affiliated with them. What exactly are they getting in return overall? I don’t know the numbers”</p>
<p>So basically you don’t know the income and expenses that the Ivy league schools have with the NCAA? Then how can you comment about whether this is a good or bad business arrangement?</p>
<p>“but common sense tells me the Ivies would do just fine without the NCAA affiliation.”</p>
<p>No they would not. The primary goal of the NCAA is to enforce uniform rules for recruitment and eligibility of student athletes. Without the NCAA the Ivy league schools would have to set up their own rules and form a committee to monitor and enforce these. The AI exist as an additional set of regulations for recruitment but are not sufficient on their own. Also most major TV networks would be very reluctant to sign a contract with NCAA non-members.</p>
<p>Finally many student athlete consider Stanford to be a good alternative to Ivy League schools.</p>
<p>swimkidsdad,</p>
<p>I’m going to respectfully disagree. But, you knew that was coming! ;-)</p>
<p>“The opportunity to participate in a national championship. Ask any Ivy League swimmer and they will tell you this is their goal.” </p>
<p>That should be every Ivy athletes goal. To win an Ivy championship and participate in the NCAAs as it exists now. The reality is that it is typically a one and done activity for most sports unless you are in a niche sport (fencing, squash) or regional sport (hockey and lacrosse) I applaude the athletes for their commitment, but the reality is they realize how good and how deep these other D1 teams are. My son was lucky enough to participate in last years NCAA regional in Chapel Hill, NC. He walked away with a new found respect for the premier athletic conferences. They played well, but in the end these other teams were too good and too deep. We’ll be kind, and say their chances were slim from the get go. </p>
<p>“So basically you don’t know the income and expenses that the Ivy league schools have with the NCAA? Then how can you comment about whether this is a good or bad business arrangement?”</p>
<p>No, I don’t know the income and expenses. I’m not aware the NCAA shares any of this information which is why Congress is interested in knowing what is going on here. It certainly benefits the NCAA and the Sports Media, but does it benefit the schools and more importantly the athletes. I read a lot on the topic. This was one of the better articles I’ve read. [The</a> Shame of College Sports - Taylor Branch - The Atlantic](<a href=“The Scandal of NCAA College Sports - The Atlantic”>The Scandal of NCAA College Sports - The Atlantic)</p>
<p>“No they would not. The primary goal of the NCAA is to enforce uniform rules for recruitment and eligibility of student athletes. Without the NCAA the Ivy league schools would have to set up their own rules and form a committee to monitor and enforce these. The AI exist as an additional set of regulations for recruitment but are not sufficient on their own. Also most major TV networks would be very reluctant to sign a contract with NCAA non-members.”</p>
<p>Seriously? It would be fairly easy to setup a clearinghouse for ivy recruits. They already have rules and committees today, and an AI policy that is pretty black and white. I’m not agreeing with you here that the NCAA adds a lot of value. Think about your last sentence above…that is because the NCAA and sports media are in this together. That is a problem in my opinion. The Ivy League does their own thing, and I applaude them for it. But I don’t think they need the NCAA nearly as much as some of these other conferences. I think within a decade you will see a competitor to the NCAA, and I would not be surprised to see the Ivys and some D3s breakaway to a model that fits them better.</p>
<p>“Finally many student athlete consider Stanford to be a good alternative to Ivy League schools.”</p>
<p>Great example and great school but Stanford is not a conference. How about 8 more world class academic D1 schools in the same conference?</p>
<p>Why is there this huge assumption that an Ivy athletic admit is a gift or a threat to the academic integrity of the university, but a LEGACY admission isn’t? Why is there this assumption that every non-athlete admission at an Ivy has merit and athletic admission are just because they are good at a sport…</p>
<p>I believe more than a few LEGACY admissions come to the Ivies every year without merit at all, where ACT/GPA aren’t an issue because the reputation, size of the wallet have it all covered and that admit does nothing to the academic integrity of the university. When if either admission is the result of something other than the normal academic channels it’s compromised…just a midwestern thought.</p>
<p>anyway Fencing expenditures for Ivies 2013</p>
<p>Princeton won the 2013 NCAA Championship and Harvard was the 2006 champion outside of that OSU/PSU & Notre Dame have won every championship since 2002. </p>
<pre><code> $$$$ finish
</code></pre>
<p>Princeton 389K 1st
Harvard 256K 6th
Columbia 326K 7th
UPenn 313K 9th
Yale 369K 10th
Brown 106K 16th
Cornell(women) 162K 19th</p>
<p>granted Princeton was one of two teams that fielded the max of 12 participants giving them a better chance of winning and they have made a very significant strides to do that in recent years. The point is this sport was once dominated by the Ivies (Columbia/Penn & Yale with 19 combined/mens or womens titles)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>schoolhouse,</p>
<p>You bring up a great point, and I’ve never really thought about Ivy LEGACYS too much in Admissions. I know through publically published info that about 5.9% of incoming 2016 student are athletes at my son’s Ivy. The AI is monitored so, we know what we are getting there. There are all kinds of published demographics and academic metrics about an incoming class. I’ve never seen anything published about legacys. Since all Ivys are private colleges, I guess that is information they do not have to share if they don’t want to. It is totally at their discretion. I’d be very curious to know if the legacy number is greater than 5.9% at son’s school, and is there a legacy discount with regards to admission standards? We know they will get preference over a similar candidate (I have no problem with that), but do they get preference over a more qualified candidate? Good question.</p>
<p>Fenway,</p>
<p>The main point of the article you referenced is this</p>
<p>“The tragedy at the heart of college sports is not that some college athletes are getting paid, but that more of them are not.”</p>
<p>So you are suggesting that the Ivy League schools leave the NCAA, offer scholarships, and pay their athletes to play? I just don’t see this happening.</p>
<p>The article goes on to describe the revenue source for the NCAA which is mainly a revenue share of the profit from the football and basketball national championship. Thus Yale would “pay” almost nothing and in return would get an organization which provides and enforces rules for the recruitment and eligibility of college athletes. The expenses would include investigating recruitment activity by coaches and boosters, and making sure an athlete maintains amateur status. I really don’t think that Yale would want to devote extra personnel and expense to do this themselves. </p>
<p>The decision to leave the NCAA is one that each Ivy League school would make individually. If an Ivy League school was not able to participate in a NCAA national championship this would adversely affect athlete recruitment. Because of this I don’t believe Harvard or Princeton would leave the NCAA. Tim Murphy, Harvard’s swim coach was also the USA Olympic open water head coach. He needs to recruit top nationally ranked distance swimmers. He would not be able to do this if those swimmers were not able to participate in a national championship.</p>
<p>swimkidsdad,</p>
<p>Good dialogue here. I meant to send you this link not the other one. [How</a> to Fix College Sports - The Atlantic](<a href=“http://www.theatlantic.com/debates/college-sports/]How”>http://www.theatlantic.com/debates/college-sports/)</p>
<p>“So you are suggesting that the Ivy League schools leave the NCAA, offer scholarships, and pay their athletes to play? I just don’t see this happening.”</p>
<p>I’m not suggesting that. I think there will be NCAA reform because they are wielding too much absolute power. What that reform will look like I don’t know. But I think the Ivys don’t fit the mold of NCAA D1 sports which is the revenue engine. Basically you have three tiers within the NCAA which by the way each have their own championship. As I stated before, I believe there will competition to the NCAA by 10 years. Do we agree that the NCAA D1 is the economic engine? Ok. So why would the Patriot and Ivy remain there when they are need based financial aid and everybody else is providing scholarships? The Ivy and Patriot League are a square peg in a round hole. Maybe the NCAA is providing the Ivys and patriot leagues $$ deals they can’t refuse. I don’t know because that info isn’t available. Athletically, it doesn’t make sense for them to remain in this D1 cut throat athletic environment? I see one of three things happening or possibly in conjunction with one another, but I think change is coming:</p>
<p>1) The NCAA creates a professional college sports league. The SEC, ACC, Big 10, etc…move into this ultra D1 league. Revenue sports subsidize non-revenue sports. Everybody else is need based financial aid across the board. Ivy and Patriot move to a different tier whether that is D1 or D3 it doesn’t matter. They are allowed to compete for their national championships.
2) Ivy and Patriot move to D3 on their own initiative or forced to by 1) above. They lose nothing in the process except having scheduling access to the strongest competition. They still have national championships and they are competing against other institutions that provide need based financial aid (no athletic scholarships)
3) Somebody creates a organization to compete with the NCAA which is a monopoly. </p>
<p>I understand your point about each school making its own decision, and I agree with it. But, I just don’t see the Ivy or Patriot really changing the way they do things together especially with the new TV contract they were just awarded. They (along with D3) should be the model (IMHO) for every student athlete. If an athlete wants to be a student there should be that option too. Cable TV is full of conference options with the Big 10 network, and ACC network with baseball, basketball and football. There is certainly more power to a conference that sticks together, and sticking to something that you do best (education in the case of the Ivys). I think if they try to be something they are not (athletic powerhouse) then there will be serious issues.</p>
<p>You are certainly keyed into what goes on in swimming which is vastly different than baseball. I’m not going to pretend I know much about swimming, but I’ll assume that swimmers aspire to individual event national championships and possibly an Olympic shot. An Ivy baseball player can aspire to be drafted into the MLB, but it is rare. About 6-10 are drafted every year out of roughly 240 players. Not good odds. But my point is that you and I may agree or disagree but we are looking at this from two entirely different perspectives. Frankly, I don’t know how this is going to turn out because there are so many angles to consider. I may think the Ivys moving to D3 is a good move for baseball but you may not agree for swimming. None the less, it has got me thinking how different ivy/patriot are from everybody else in D1.</p>
<p><a href=“Before Athletic Recruiting in the Ivy League, Some Math - The New York Times”>Before Athletic Recruiting in the Ivy League, Some Math - The New York Times;
<p>At Least 3.0 and 1,140 </p>
<p>Perhaps the most talked about goal of the A.I. is the academic credential minimum it establishes, a number below which virtually no Ivy League recruit can be admitted. This summer, that floor was raised from an Academic Index of 171 to 176, which roughly translates to a B student (3.0 on a 4.0 scale) with a score of 1140 on the old two-part SAT. </p>
<p>SAT of 1140 not 1440.</p>
<p>Individual athlete AI can vary quite a bit, more important is that the team AI range must be met.</p>
<p>Fenway - FYI, Patriot League has athletic scholarships, even in football (as of the current HS senior class).</p>
<p>^^^^Thanks for the reminder. I knew they recently added football and basketball, but forgot. I’m a few years removed from Patriot recruiting. But, I stand by my earlier statement that Ivy and Patriot sports are a square peg in a round hole of ultra competitive D1 sports chasing after the almighty $$.</p>
<p>From the perspective of S who is being recruited by both Harvard and Stanford for his sport, the square peg in the world of round holes is exactly why H is being considered.</p>
<p>5amriser,</p>
<p>I totally agree and understand. From a recruit perspective, my son wanted the square Ivy peg in the round D1 hole for his sport due to less games, less travel, less practice time, and more time available to study engineering. He knew exactly what he was getting into because that is exactly what we were looking for. </p>
<p>He wanted an Ivy championship with berth into NCAA tournament just like everybody dreams. Everything was gravy beyond the conference championship. He had no preconceived notions of becoming a professional athlete. His long term talents are elsewhere. </p>
<p>From an athletic and time commitment perspective there is no comparison between H and S in my son’s sport. S would win 100 out of 100 games played against H. Stanford is the ultimate exception to everything I’ve posted in previous threads. S is the apex of athletics and academics IMHO.</p>
<p>I guess the reason I posted this question is because it seems to fly in the face of the likely letter… If this kid was indeed “offered” by Yale and “committed” to them (as a junior) – wouldn’t this cause some consternation in the Admissions office? Plus, I thought that Yale had become less friendly toward athletic recruits in recent years… It just didn’t seem to square with all the Ivy athletic recruiting insights that people like Varska and bballdad have posted in the last couple of years. Or do the coaches have a little more sway than the schools are willing to admit?</p>
<p>WellMeainingDad,</p>
<p>I looked at your original post as a one-way communication by a recruit who may or may not understand their commitment is in fact…one-way. varskas original post I thought captured the essence of that. It has the same effect as my 12 year old kid telling the newspaper that he is committed to Harvard. If Admissions was not “on-board”, I’m guessing the coach is going to get some consternation (your word) coming his way. </p>
<p>My observation is that (Ivy) athletic depts. strategy varies. Some schools seem to gravitate to certain sports. Some coaches have more pull than others, and I assume it is because they have earned “equity” from Admissions over the years. I think all of this gets informally factored into a very formal process is the best way I can try to explain it. I think understanding that as a recruit is important.</p>
<p>fenwaysouth,</p>
<p>Like I said in my original post - this came from a well-known basketball recruiting-related website and was an article titled “Yale Starts 2014 in Style.” In other words, it’s not like your 12 year old kid… I’m thinking that Admissions was on board which seems to contradict most of what’s been posted on here about the Ivy recruiting process. That’s why I thought this was significant. And as an earlier poster observed, I can’t see any reason why a recruit would do this if it weren’t rock solid since it takes him off the recruiting board.</p>
<p>There may be an implication the Admissions is on board, but the earliest they’re involved is when they give a pre-read late summer or early fall of senior year. If the pre-read is positive, an invitation for an Official Visit may follow. In any event, until there is a submitted application and either a Likely Letter or an acceptance, the “verbal commitment” is fairly meaningless.</p>
<p>WellMeaningDad,</p>
<p>I question the well known basketball journal author’s understanding of the Ivy recruiting process just as I usually question our local newspaper reporters knowledge of Ivy & D3 recruiting. They don’t understand it, but they certainly want you to read their article or buy their magazine. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard or read student athletes getting full rides to D3s and Ivy schools in local publications and our local newspaper. Typically, I chuckle to myself.</p>