How Many Core Courses Per Year In High School Is Considered Rigorous

Applying to College
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<p>I see a lot of high school students on here listing 6 difficult courses in their schedule. This seems excessive to me, but it seems very common. Usually these kids have a mix of AP's and Honors courses in there.</p>

<p>I would think that 5 challenging courses would be considered rigorous enough to get into a high ranking, but not super elite school(I'll define this below), but is this the case? For example, I was going to advise my daughter to sign up for the following courses. She's currently a freshman. I'm listing those too.</p>

<p>Freshman:
Honors Geometry
Honors Biology
Honors English
Honors US History I
Spanish II</p>

<p>Sophomore:
Honors Algebra 2/Trigonometry
Honors Chemistry
Honors English
Honors US History II instead of APUSH
Spanish III</p>

<p>Junior:
Honors Precalc
Honors Physics
Honors English
Honors World History instead of AP World History
Introduction To Computer Science(not AP)</p>

<p>Senior:
AP Calc BC
AP Physics C
Honors English
AP Microeconomics(1/2 year)
A non-AP 1/2 year Social Studies elective
AP Computer Science</p>

<p>My daughter currently cares a lot about the prestige of her future college, but I think this will probably change. I don't think she's going to want to do the amount of EC's needed to get into the most selective colleges, and she doesn't have any unusual talents that would give her a leg up at those schools.</p>

<p>I'm guessing that if her grades remain close to where they are now, her reaches will be schools like Boston College, Villanova, Bucknell, Union, and Lehigh, and her matches will be schools like Stony Brook, Binghamton, and Fordham.</p>

<p>Do you think that a schedule like the one I've listed above would be considered rigorous by these kinds of schools? She likes Math and Science much more than she likes English and Social Studies. </p>

<p>The schedule above has only 4 AP courses, and they're all in the senior year. These are the only ones I can see her enjoying and getting good grades in. It also has Spanish only up to Spanish 3, with Computer Science in its place for the last 2 years.</p>

<p>This is the schedule that I personally think would prepare her best for what she'll probably end up wanting to do, while still giving her a chance to have a social life and the ability to maintain a competitive ranking in her class. On the other hand, I don't want to see her get disappointed if she can't get into the school of her choice, because of lack of rigor. </p>

<p>What do you all think? Would this be enough?</p>

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<p>Even if they aren’t APs or Honors, you need at least 5 core courses per year. The cores are math, English, social studies, science, and foreign language. Preferably the toughest ones you can take and get good grades in. So far, so good.</p>

<p>Given current trends, if your HS offers more APs and they are available earlier, I don’t think her schedule will be rigorous enough for places like BC and Lehigh. Also not a good idea to go from no APs to 4 APs senior year - she needs APs by junior year so colleges can see how she does in those classes. APs senior year only won’t get them a full year grade in time to consider for admissions.</p>

<p>Also, top schools aren’t particularly fond of kids dodging tough classes in any subject. They don’t like humanities kids dodging tough science and math courses and they don’t like STEM kids dodging tough English and social studies courses. You can do that after you get to college. She’ll also want to hit Level IV in Spanish to be truly competitive.</p>

<p>Could your schedule work for the schools you list? Maybe. But if it doesn’t, you don’t get a second shot. Err on the side of caution, go more rigorous. And a more rigorous schedule can also makeup for test scores that come in a little lower than you like - like maybe a point to point and a half on the ACT if she can maintain good grades and get those 6-8 APs in with Level IV Spanish.</p>

<p>Personally, I’d consider finding 1 AP sophomore year, 2 junior year APs, and stick with the 4 senior year. Based on what you already have, I’d do APUSH sophomore year, AP World and AP Lang junior year. But that’s just my opinion. Others will chime in with theirs.</p>

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<p>I would recommend calling (or meeting with) her guidance counselor. While there are some basic guidelines for selective schools, as Mr Mom points out, my understanding is that ultimately the student’s rigor is judged against her HS classmates. So it would probably be helpful for you both to know what the other high-achieving students (who apply to similar schools) in her school tend to do. When do they start APs; how many APs do they generally take compared to the amount offered by the school, etc. I’m obviously not talking about that once-in 10-years super genius kid, but comparable students. The GC is going to be checking a box on her Common App report defining how rigorous your D’s courses were in the context of her peers, and it’d be great if she could check “most rigorous” :)</p>

<p>Also, you can check the College Board Big Future web site, or the Common Data sets, to see how many years of what courses specific colleges expect to see. For instance many schools really want to see 4 years of language.</p>

<p>My personal belief is that colleges don’t want to see an academic/EC robot, they want to see a student who has pursued their passions and who has CHALLENGED THEMSELVES. (So that’s where they like to see, for instance, a humanities kid who hates math take a high-level math class, even if she gets a C in it. That’s better than stopping math at the minimum graduation requirements or taking the easiest ones and getting As.)</p>

<p>Also keep in mind your daughter’s stress level. It’s sadly becoming a major problem these days, and I’ve seen several extremely bright and gifted young women buckle and crash during high school. (See the movie, “Race to Nowhere”.) My D’s high school did not have a horrendous stress culture, but the students definitely felt it. We had no idea about it when she was a freshman, and didn’t really discuss with her how her high school course selection and grades would effect her college choices (we just wanted her to be challenged and engaged) yet by sophomore year she’d absorbed enough worry about it that she went into a major depression, which, of course, affected her grades and made her stress even worse. So- just something to be aware of :)</p>

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<p>If your school is offering APs and your daughter is deliberately choosing honors over AP and your school considers APs as the highest standard, then she might be shortchanging herself on the college apps.</p>

<p>I suggest it is important for her to have a few AP scores during the application process to give her an edge.</p>

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<p>You’re from one of the two states in the country that splits US History into two years. It never made sense to me to do that. Nevertheless, regarding the US History debacle, does your daughter’s school split APUSH into two years? I know my local school does so it’s AP US History I and AP US History II. If they do that, I highly recommend she should go that route. I also think your daughter should choose APWH. Those courses in sophomore and junior year will not only prepare her for the load that she’ll be taking in senior year but also they will prepare her for college rigor. Honors courses are obviously nothing to sniff at, but I’m a senior who has learned her lesson: AP courses are the way to go. That means an AP English senior year. </p>

<p>On to the next point, your daughter’s interests, passions, and desires may change in the upcoming year. So that schedule and the AP courses selected may vary. Plus the college choices may vary. The most important thing is to ensure that that schedule will satisfy the recommendations/requirements of the colleges. If she’s going to highly selective/selective schools that want to see three years of a foreign language IN high school, she might want to take a Spanish course at a local community college or self-study AP Spanish. If the schools count middle school Spanish I, it’ll be four years of foreign language in high school which will only help her. </p>

<p>This is coming from a homeschooler who was able to do 9+ courses a year, but I feel 5 courses a year is a little light. I understand public school is different and that she’ll need time for homework, real life, and EC’s, but I think you might want your daughter to tackle some more rigor. I don’t see many electives or fine arts courses. Schools’ requirements may differ but they want to see variety within that rigor. Your daughter should try to do a little bit more if she really wishes to go to the colleges you mentioned or similar colleges. </p>

<p>I wish your daughter and you the best of luck! The process is changing so rapidly that in the next 4-5 years it will be so different. However the stress remains the same…</p>

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<p>She’s a freshman. She has 3 summers and 3+ years of school before college to find and develop her interests and talents.</p>

<p>My kids both took an AP course in 10th grade (Euro) and then several in 11th and 12th. S finished with 5, D will finish with 7, I think. Our HS doesn’t allow any AP science before the regular science is completed, and doesn’t allow freshman to take APs. It also offers a LOT of dual credit college courses, through 4 different colleges, so a lot of the most advanced kids do those instead of APs. </p>

<p>PS - 5 is the basic minimum i think , the rest of the day might be taken with music or newspaper or art or whatever your kid enjoys, but my D has doubled up on science or math for the last 3 years of HS because she likes them. That allowed her to get 2 AP sciences and 2 AP math classes in where she wouldn’t have been able to otherwise.</p>

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Thank you for the great responses, everyone.

@MrMom62‌, I was afraid someone would say that. I was hoping she could avoid the classes she’s weakest in, but I guess she’s going to have to take them if she wants to keep her options open. I just don’t want to see her grades drop. She’s already struggling to keep her grade up in Honors History this year.

@staceyneil‌, meeting with her guidance counselor is a great idea. I’m going to set that up. Sorry to hear about your daughter’s rough time. I hope she’s doing better. That’s exactly what I’m trying to avoid. My daughter puts a lot of pressure on herself. I think her confidence is already a little shaken this year, but I guess she’s going to be challenged eventually. I just don’t want her to get overwhelmed. It’s probably a bit more over-protective father than rattled child, but I just don’t want to see her get down on herself.

@texaspg‌, I’m going to talk to her about doing some APs earlier on. The unfortunate thing is that she can’t take the Math and Science APs early, and those are the ones that she’d probably breeze through. So her first exposure to college level material will be in a subject that she’s not very confident in. I just don’t understand the logic of forcing sophomores in High School to take college courses in order to have a good chance of getting into the college of their choice. It almost makes we want to try to convince her to set her sights on schools that don’t have that requirement. They’re basically saying “To get into our college you need to have already taken college courses in all subject areas.” What’s high school for then? I don’t get it.

@TheDidactic‌, I actually wrote that wrong. They split the regular and honors World History into 2 courses, not US History. I’m pretty sure the AP versions are both just one year. She did get credit for one year of Spanish from middle school. So you think that means she should take Spanish all four years in High School? I’ve seen other people say that. I was hoping she could use that spot for Computer Science. 9 courses is crazy! I think she’d have a nervous breakdown if she did that. She is taking Art this year. I only listed her core courses. Thanks for the great info.

@OHMomof2‌, that’s true. She does have time on the EC’s. I just don’t see her wanting to do the types of EC’s that the really selective schools seem to want, but you never know. Our school does have courses that they can get college credit for. Do you think those are viewed as equivalent to an AP by colleges? That would be great, because I think she can take some of those earlier than some of the APs. I don’t know how your daughter doubled up on Science and Math. My daughter likes those too, but I think doubling up on them would stress her out.

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Keep in mind that for ECs, it’s better to show commitment to an EC that you’re passionate about, than to do a whole bunch that you think “the selective schools seem to want”. And that can mean both in and out of school. So someone who’s passionate about art, for example, can be in the art club at school and volunteer to design the drama club’s posters, and report she does 10 hours/week of art outside school, and have her artwork in some local coffeeshop shows and maintain a photography and art blog for several years… you get the idea. That is better than just being in 10 clubs/sports at school. At least, at the very selective LACs my daughter applied to, that is what we heard from admissions people. Those schools also tend to have a more holistic admissions process, though.

If she’s feeling stressed by her Honors History class, maybe it’s not a great idea to count on the absolute most rigorous all-AP class schedule. Perhaps it might be a good idea to research some of the more holistic types of schools and at least have some on the list. Many, many LACs are ramping up their STEM programs now. My daughter attends Mount Holyoke and at least half of her friends are STEM students.

Since your daughter is a freshman, she probably doesn’t really know yet whether a huge university or a smaller LAC is a better fit for her, so it might be good to have some on her list. Perhaps schools like Bates, Skidmore, Smith and Mount Holyoke.

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From all the books I’ve read - and there was a phase I went through when my oldest was in the college whirl where i read every book on college admissions I could find - the Es need to be what the kid wants, not what the kid thinks colleges want. I’d agree with this anyway - what kid is going to throw themselves into a hobby or activity that s/he doesn’t really enjoy? So if the kid likes origami or skateboarding or raising hogs or sewing dresses or quilts, let her do that and encourage her to take it to the highest level she can. External validation in the form of awards or businesses or published work can help.

It’s not every kid who wants to do Model UN or math team or Intel competitions or varsity/club sports.

D doubling up on math was (is…she’s doing it this year too) stressful. But it was her choice to do it, she simply wanted those classes and there was no other way to get them. So she juggles. Orchestra fell away after 10th grade- that was an activity she’d done since 4th grade, violin - but she made the choice. I think that’s critical - the kid has to make the call. I suggested and encouraged and facilitated when I saw an interest (you’re really getting good at volleyball, would you like to try a club team this year?), but she always chose.

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I agree with others that going from zero AP classes to four AP classes during one’s senior year is unwise. . That will make fall of her senior year horrendously stressful with college applications and maybe test talking. You want to avoid that scenario.

As for EC’s, keep in mind these don’t have to be school based. A part time job counts as an EC. Your child may be taking classes or lessons (music, dance, foreign language) outside of school. Those count as EC’s. Also, I strongly believe in quality over quantity. If your daughter loves one or two particular activities to the point they consume most of her spare time, that’s great. That shows your daughter has drive, passion, and persistence, qualities colleges like to see. At this time in ninth grade, D was just beginning to figure out her big interests that lasted throughout her senior year.

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Sorry, delayed reaction here. Got busy at work. Thanks for the replies.

@staceyneil‌, I think a focused approach to EC’s is all that she would really be interested in, so that’s good. We’ve been discussing it, and trying to come up with some ideas.

About LAC’s with good STEM programs, I don’t think she would like an all girls school, but do you know if Skidmore or Bates have good CS or Math? I can see her choosing Business, too.

@OHMomof2‌, I agree that the EC’s have to be what the kid wants, but the frustrating thing about the EC’s to me, is that it’s such a wild card. Of course you don’t want the kid to do something they don’t want to do, but many of the schools list EC’s as Important or Very Important. So they’re clearly looking for something.

Is it just some minimum hurdle that they have to get over and then that box is checked? For example, “OK this kid did 3 years of volunteering in the same area, and did a sport for 4 years - Check. Let’s move on to academics.” Do you think it’s important in that way, or do they really dissect what the kid did and make it a major part of the decision? I’m not asking this in reference to the super selective schools. I’m asking about, let’s say 30 and down.

I’m finding that advising my daughter through the academic part is challenging, but it’s doable with the help of this site. At least it’s concrete. Take these courses, keep your grades above this level, etc. Not too difficult to plan. But the EC’s are stressing me out, because I don’t know what’s going to help her get into the schools she’ll end up shooting for.

@SlackerMomMD‌, I’ve already talked to my daughter about taking some AP’s earlier on. We talked in detail about how much time she currently spends on homework. She said she does around 3 hours per day, with one of those happening during study hall. She said she thinks she probably only dedicates a half hour per day to Honors Freshman History. She’s finding the exams difficult, but she’s not overwhelmed with work.

I think APWH should only up that by an hour per day. She’s willing to do that in order to keep her chances open at more selective schools, even though she really doesn’t like History. Do you think four hours of homework per day is a typical amount for a student in Honors and AP classes? I was hoping she could take Computer Science, too(dual listed at a local college, not AP), but that would probably add another hour per day. 5 hours per day seems a little excessive to me. What do you think? She runs track and doesn’t get home until dinner time.

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4 years of Spanish isn’t a must but definitely would not hurt her, let’s just say that. I wanted to do 2 years of Chinese and 2 years of Spanish but when I heard in my junior year that places wanted a single language longer than 2, I decided to do Spanish III senior year instead. If she likes computer science though and might want to work with computers or technology, let that fill the space instead. Either way, it would be helpful and nice on a transcript. Spanish helps since it’s a popular language in our country and is useful for business. CS is useful because it’s a technology course. She could always do CS in school and do Spanish at a CC independently.

Bates doesn’t have a CS major. They also don’t have a Business program either since they are a LAC. LAC’s don’t gear towards pre-professional as much as a typical school may. LAC’s will be more artsy and diverse, allowing the students to have a broad education and discover themselves and the world. If your daughter is still as unsure about her career path as she seems now, then LAC’s will be good for her. Otherwise, if she’s thinking about something more tech/career oriented, she’ll have to look outside of LAC’s. Most places offer a seemingly liberal arts education now but still offer that professional guidance too.

Can’t comment on Skidmore. HOWEVER, to contradict what my first paragraph says, Washington and Lee has business and law. Kinda off grid since you said she likes math and science more but hey they have a good science program too. Planning now is great but tastes change and plans change. I remember wanting to go to all these places…Johns Hopkins, Bates, UMaryland, Rutgers…I had the supplements all written out over the summer. I didn’t end up applying to any of them. I had a senior year crisis and changed up my colleges.

So the point is, it never hurts to plan but your daughter may change her mind in the next four years.

About the EC’s, they look for passion. They don’t care WHAT you do. They can’t really discriminate or judge too harshly. Would they rather see the person who worked for the newspaper the last two years or the person who volunteered at the food bank for 4 years? The food bank kid. When they say EC’s are important, that just means they want to see your passions. What drives you? What do you do when you’re not in school? EC’s define a person just as much as grades do. Adcoms want to know the full package (especially the LAC’s with their fun little holistic approaches).

No particular EC will guarantee admission. What matters is the accomplishments within the EC. What does your daughter do now besides track? Is she involved with any sports, clubs, organizations, or things like that? I find that what you’ve done before is more than enough to carry you through. If she’s played soccer, ran track, or played an instrument since she was 8, that’s perfectly fine. She doesn’t have to be the Model UN rep of the school district or anything like that…but it doesn’t hurt. :wink:

I had only 3 major EC’s I listed but had them for 3-4 years through high school. The kid that dabbles in everything seems diverse and may just be searching new experiences, which is completely fine. But there has to be that passion somewhere.

Alsoooo 4 hours of homework seems doable imo. Someone else may be better able to comment on that though.

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That’s pretty typical; time management is key.

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@TheDidactic‌, thanks for the great response.

I’m expecting her to change her mind over the next few years, but I’m trying to learn about as many colleges as possible, so that we’re prepared when the time comes.

My daughter does track and tutoring, and she wants to get involved with animal shelters. I’m hoping this will be enough.

Washington and Lee is on my list. I’ll definitely encourage her to look at it if she decides to study business, and we can afford it at that time.

I’m curious, did your list of schools change in your Senior year because your grades changed drastically, or did you just decide you wanted to go in a different direction because of the crisis you mentioned? if you’re not comfortable saying, I completely understand. Thanks.

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Obviously it depends on what workload she can handle but the top students take one AP class sophomore year. What is common in Chicago suburbs for extremely strong STEM students is AP Calc BC junior year and then senior year a 2nd year of Calc co-enrolled with a local college. I did not see AP Bio or AP Chem in her curriculum? My D took 1 sophomore year, 3 junior year and 5 senior year. Also in high school I think it makes sense for students to take both STEM and English, History or other Social Science higher level courses regardless of their perceived interests. D probably got a little carried away particularly senior year but she’s handling the work. A lot of good advice others have given you. One other point I would add - spend some quality time now in Jan planning what she is going to do this summer. Make it something in her field of interest that will help confirm her interests and make it something very few students her age have done. This will probably mean creating an opportunity instead of picking a program at a fancy college. This is D senior year and she is taking AP Calc BC, AP Stats, AP Physics, AP Lit, AP gov, Orchestra - a balance of subjects. Five tough classes is enough I certainly could not see doing six AP classes. It is very good that you are helping map out her high school like this early give thought to pre-requisites should it turn out she has a very strong appetite for challenging courses, it becomes a bit of a chess game at some point

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Definitely spread out the APs if possible. Also leave some room or senioritis. Senior year should involve some fun.

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No problem, @WalknOnEggShells‌! Glad I could be of assistance.

It’s always good to be prepared. Track and tutoring are good EC’s and working at the animal shelter is nice too. Especially if she loves animals! If she is showing a pattern (beginning with the tutoring) of wanting to help people/animals and carries this throughout 3-4 years of high school, it will show the adcoms that passion I was talking about.

Washington and Lee is a great school and it might be a good fit for her. I don’t know how far away it is from you, but it could be an option. It’s one of my reaches.

No, my grades didn’t change drastically. I just realized I wanted to go in a different direction with the schools I chose. Initially, I chose all top-grade places in kinda-urban areas. But really, after touring some campuses online and offline, I learned that the sprawling city campus wasn’t for me. Some people love to get away. I know plenty of kids who want to/did jet out to NYC or Boston to “experience college”. But I came to the realization it wasn’t me. I liked smaller campuses in a more rural/suburban setting. I wasn’t one to walk 10-15 blocks to class in an unsafe city environment. It’s a personal preference; I liked the rolling green hills of a grassy quad. Now, all the places that I have applied to save for 2, are in a rural/suburban environment (and, rather unintentionally, in ALL cold places!!!).

Also, on top of that, I realized that a lot of my college choices were really based off the name. It’s not like I sat there and went off the US News ranking list but I noticed a pattern and I didn’t like it. I didn’t want to choose a college just because it was “prestigious” or whatnot. I wanted to choose a college based off of how it fit me and my goals. That’s probably the biggest mistake kids make…they choose these places like Duke, Georgetown, Ivies, UChicago, etc etc. that have small admissions percentages. If you have the stats to get in, fine, but you shouldn’t pigeonhole yourself to that status. Have matches and reaches too that are just normal places.

If you really like Arcadia or Albright in PA, or Rowan or Rider in NJ, that’s fine too! It’s what fits you and it’s what fits your budget. Don’t let the shiny “prestige” of huge places or the approval of friends and relatives at barbecues intimidate you into choosing certain schools. It’s fine if you want that for yourself, but you shouldn’t feel compelled to choose that. I have only one Ivy on my list: Cornell. I was thinking about applying to Cornell and Penn but I only wanted to do one and I chose Cornell instead. Penn is a great school but I had to make a tough decision based on what actually fit me, and I went with Cornell. I’m ultimately glad with the choices I made. I chose 9 colleges: 3 safeties, 3 matches/low reaches, and 3 reaches/high reaches.

The list changes so many times it gets to a point where it’s not even funny. I flip-flopped on the University of Vermont so many times. It’s nice, it has what I want, it’s in New England, but it’s an OOS public…ended up applying there lol. I wanted to do Temple when I was younger, but it’s very unsafe. A college fair I went to in November screwed up everything and I had to scramble around with my choices at the last minute. I added some places, docked others. One week before I had my college apps in, I had this one in-state school in mind for the past year and a half (not going to say who). I could have gotten a good scholarship (free ride, it was published right on the website) but there were accreditation issues, plus the academics were not the best. So even though it was tempting money-wise, I canned it to make room for others.

My parents must have been so frustrated and you might reach that point too. Just understand that it’s a difficult time for your daughter too, trying to process everything. There will be flip flops. You both probably will question yourself. You will be so bombarded with essays that you’ll probably memorize them because they’ve been read out loud so many times. (I basically memorized my Common App essay because we went over it so much). However, the end result is worth it!

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Agree track and tutoring and animal shelter are good ECs. Agree that you talk to GC. Some high schools require you be recommended to take APs based on grades and teacher recommendation. Agree taking one AP soph or two APs jr year are for Admissions to see on transcript.