How Many of Y'all Were Set On A PhD From The Start?

Graduate School
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<p>Just a bit of before-bed wondering. How many of y'all (to those with PhD's, or working towards one currently) were set on that path from the beginning of undergrad? How long did it take, from undergrad to Phd (to those who have completed or are extremely close to completing their programs)? </p>

<p>One last question: did any of y'all find the notion of a Phd, the work, time, effort, as well as the expectations that go along with it, daunting? For me, the more I research tidbits about various programs in the country, as well as the work some people had to go through (original pieces of research and such), is a bit intimidating to me. I find myself worrying more and more whether my years as an undergrad will sufficiently prepare me. </p>

<p>How about any of you? Any similar concerns that went through your heads in your undergrad years before starting your respective PhD programs?</p>

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<p>I have a PhD. It was absolutely not my goal or expectation when I started undergrad. I worked for several years after I got a masters degree before I decided to go back to get a PhD.</p>

<p>I didn’t think about it the way you are thinking about it. My attitude was more along the lines of “Carpe Diem”…loosely translated as “enjoy the day” or “seize the day”. I believe education is a “means to an end” rather than an “end”, but when I went back to a PhD program after working for years, I really tried to enjoy and find meaning in just being a student. Thinking ahead too much just seemed to depress me.</p>

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<p>I have a PhD. It was my goal coming out of high school, but only because people (who mostly didn’t know what it entailed or the purpose of one, really) told me I should pursue one because they perceived me as smart, and that’s something smart people do.</p>

<p>Coming out of my undergrad program (as the first member of my family, and nearly the first member of my entire huge extended family, to get a college degree, and certainly the first to go to grad school), I was directed into grad school by my professors, with really no idea of what was involved in it. (I’m in a discipline where it’s normal to go straight from a bachelor’s into a doctoral program, so I didn’t even have master’s work to serve as a transition.)</p>

<p>As a result, I didn’t find it daunting, but that was mainly out of ignorance.</p>

<p>If I knew then what I know now, I’m not certain I would have done it (though if I had, I’d’ve definitely gone with more of a computational focus!), but that’s not because of the rigors of the program, it’s because of the abysmal state of the job market for PhD-requiring jobs in most fields, including mine.</p>

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<p>I have a PhD as well. It certainly was not a goal coming out of high school, but I did start thinking about it in my freshman year of college, and by the end of my sophomore year I was pretty certain that I wanted to get a PhD and do research in my field. I went straight from undergrad to grad school as well.</p>

<p>I don’t think I found the notion daunting…I enjoyed school, and I thought to myself, “Five more years to take classes and do research in stuff I really like!” I did a lot of research on PhDs and job prospects before I committed to a program, so I had a really good idea of what I was getting myself into. I was prepared for feeling overwhelmed with work. I was NOT prepared for the mental health issues I had in the middle of the program. I never thought to question whether I would feel prepared for the program, but I did feel prepared.</p>

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<p>I didn’t decide to do graduate school until probably my second semester of my junior year of my BS and didn’t decide on a PhD until really about the time I graduated.</p>

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<p>It took me 4 years for the BS and about 5.5 more to do the PhD.</p>

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<p>I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little bit anxious, but like so many others, I went into it not fully understanding what was fully involved in the process. If it was daunting, it wouldn’t have been for the right reason. It has been far harder yet far easier than I ever expected. I know that probably doesn’t make sense, but bear with me. There has been a ton of work involved, a lot of late nights, the constant feeling of doubt when surrounded by so many intelligent people, and plenty of feeling drastically undervalued given that even engineering PhDs are paid only a fraction of what their work is worth. On the other hand, I really, truly enjoy what I am doing and the research process and don’t regret getting into it. I couldn’t get a research career of the type I sought without the PhD anyway; the BS jobs just bored me.</p>

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<p>I am in the process of applying for PhD programs, and, due to my own ineptitude in getting research experience in undergrad, had to settle for a masters first in my home country (at least that masters was representative of what a PhD really is like) or else I would have gone directly if offered the choice (either at home or abroad).</p>

<p>As for whether or not I was set on a PhD, I would say that I wanted to do research in physics since early in high school so I knew a PhD was required somehow. Hence I would say that I am set on it.</p>

<p>Now that I am in grad school I would say that the PhD is not as daunting as I first imagined it to be.</p>

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<p>Sorry about the long wait. Also, I don’t quite know how to use the quoting system, sorry.</p>

<p>@jack63‌ </p>

<p>In my case, the opportunities for post-undergrad work has a very small window of time. The way my scholarship works, I’m “encouraged” to start grad school right after undergrad, and it’s rare to get a deferral for longer than a 1 (or 2, in extreme cases). Since that’s pretty much laid out for me, the prime thing to do was think and research (in my opinion). </p>

<p>@dfbdfb‌ </p>

<p>From what you say, it sounds useful to start off in a Masters program then? I’m in a major where, I’ve been told, it is normal to jump into PhD programs (physics/engineering, depending on where I end up at the end of my 5 years of undergrad). </p>

<p>Also, did the rigors not phase you? What kind of stuff did you have to do in your field? </p>

<p>@juillet‌ </p>

<p>I say “daunting” mostly because the whole notion behind the PhD programs clashes with my cultural upbringing. To me, it seems like this daunting process where you are asked to prove that you can contribute to the world of science (in my case). Not a situation I ever thought I’d find myself in. </p>

<p>What mental health issues do you speak of? </p>

<p>@boneh3ad‌ </p>

<p>Is it hard to complete the program under 5 years? I was aiming for 5 years at the max (so it’s 5yrs of undergrad, 5yrs for a PhD). </p>

<p>I want to do the PhD program for the possibilities it could open up. Not exactly monetary, but more the things I could see, contribute to, and discover through the years of the program. I live with little money anyways, so money isn’t my goal for a PhD. </p>

<p>@Catria‌ </p>

<p>From what you say, I gather it is hard to enter PhD programs with little prior researching experience? If it was possible for me to enter research in undergrad, would that up my chances of going straight from undergrad to a PhD program?</p>

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<p>@NotYetEngineer‌</p>

<p>Yes, that would be difficult but not unheard of.The average time from finishing a BS to PhD for engineers falls somewhere in the 5 to 7 years range, and I believe it is closer to 5 than 7, but I don’t remember exactly. I am a pretty average case in terms of length. It is also a skewed distribution. I’ve known a lot more people that take 6 or 7 years than people who take 4.</p>

<p>At any rate, in most cases, 5 years is barely enough time to really be able to say you are a subject area expert anyway. </p>

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<p>The lowest amount of research experience I’ve ever heard about that could get into a PhD program straight from undergrad (other than pure mathematics) was a single summer. Oh, of course, if you work well in a research project, it will make your letters of recommendation much better than coursework-based ones.</p>

<p>I wonder whether engineering is like this, but often physics research projects given to undergrads are projects that are more or less canned (and may or may not be components of much larger projects) so that the student won’t get disheartened and many professors understand that. PhD admissions committees look for whether one had <em>any</em> research experience because they assume that the student will have a better idea as to whether research is for him/her and that they have a better idea of what research really is like.</p>

<p>One last thing: engineering sees a lot of PhD hopefuls stay until they pass the quals, and withdraw from the program after the passage of quals, at which point they can earn a free en-route masters, but they are not the majority.</p>

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<p>I also got a Ph.D. and I pretty much expected to do so. My parents were both university professors and it seemed like a really good thing to do at the time (I don’t regret it at all). My Ph.D. is in physics and it took 5 years total, which was, at the time, about 1.5 years less than the average time to degree for physics in the University of California system. The first year was a a bit daunting because I realized that my peers were all just as good at physics as I was. The pressure was on to pass the qualifying exam. Once that was over, it just became a lot of fun doing research.</p>

<p>Since then I have advised a lot of students going into a Ph.D program and I would suggest that if you want a Ph.D., don’t bother with a Masters degree. Lots of people think that the natural progression is B.S., M.S., Ph.D. but that is not true at all in most disciplines. When I see departments which require a M.S. before the Ph.D. (and sometimes with a Thesis), I always wonder whose interest that really serves, not necessarily the student’s.</p>

<p>Finally, concerning your question about amount of research experience to get into a Ph.D. program. I had a paper published and I had worked in a Computer Science research lab for several years. Graduate programs look for research experience but you can probably get accepted with little research experience if your academics are top notch.</p>

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<p>In my experience, most depts that require a MSc (thesis or not) for PhD admission are housed in universities outside the US. </p>

<p>I don’t know whether there are other countries like this, but Indian universities will disqualify applicants to tenure-track positions that do not hold the whole set of degrees (BSc+MSc+PhD), so the primary reason to even want a MSc when you know you want a PhD in the end is to keep foreign options open on the job market. However, most jobs that prefer, or demand, a PhD I know about will not hold it against you if you went directly for the PhD.</p>

<p>A MSc is useful when one wants to enhance a somewhat weak academic record prior to a PhD, or if you’re not sure about doing 4-6 years of research in one area after undergrad. But, remember, getting an out of a direct PhD usually means that you will have to pass quals to do so.</p>

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<p>For me it was 4 years undergrad 2.5 years Masters (I switched from Physics to EE and was a TA. Both things extended my time in the Masters degree. Between my masters and PhD I worked for several years. Phd took 4.5 years (I had fewer requirements because I already had a Masters degree). The only thing daunting about the whole process was taking classes. I could do well, but it required a lot of work and focus. It was hard to keep that up year after year. It was important for me to not go all the way thru and regain my focus. Once you have passed quals, you basically just do research with few classes. I enjoyed the research and didn’t find it as daunting. </p>

<p>Once you passed quals and start doing research, you are still a “student”, but you are basically starting your professional research career. It is very different from taking classes. It is really more of an apprenticeship…at least in engineering.</p>

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<p>@NotYetEngineer‌: I’m in linguistics. The rigors of it required some adjustment in year one of the program—I didn’t get a good year-end evaluation, and I deserved that, but I adjusted well enough afterward. I’d already had some research experience, though in theoretical work, and so dealing with actually doing fieldwork in the subfield I ended up in was a bit weird. It took me 6 years—could have taken 5, but I got a job while still ABD (to my surprise, but you don’t turn that down).</p>

<p>If I had to do it over again, I’d certainly have made sure I had more stats than I took as an undergrad, though.</p>

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<p>@NotYetEngineer - The mental health issues were a bout with depression and anxiety in years 3-4 of my program. Many doctoral students deal with depression during their doctoral years (I think a recent estimate was about 60%) at varying levels and degrees. Year 3 is a particularly rough year as students transition from taking classes to the independence of qualifying exams and ramping up the research expectations. The depression and anxiety hit, and I was so worried about everything - whether I would pass quals, whether I could get a job, whether I could compete in the rough research world, whether I was good enough for anything. Some days I was so depressed I couldn’t get out of bed, and I would let days go by without doing any work, only to have high anxiety and rush to try to finish things at the last minute.</p>

<p>Long story short I started seeing a therapist in year 4 and made some changes so by the end of that year I was feeling a lot better, and my years 5 and 6 were some of the happiest years of my life. I really enjoyed writing my dissertation and I’m a postdoc now, and really enjoy that too!</p>

<p>Not everyone has mental health challenges in grad school and not everyone’s are severe as mine, of course (which were moderate, I would say). I also had prior mental health issues from undergrad.</p>