How many schools to apply to for music?

College Majors Music Major
21

The two schools that got crossed off were because S didn’t like the teachers and because the schools and the towns they’re located in have very little diversity. One of the schools is on many “best” lists, the other was going to be his “safety.” My S plays jazz saxophone and many schools only have one jazz sax professor, so compatibility really matters, especially if the schools are in isolated locations where access to outside teachers/mentors is unlikely. You have to consider it in the context of committing four years being their student; that’s almost a lifetime for a 17 year-old.

We’re lucky to live in a college town with a top state university that happens to also have a good music school that gets mentioned here often. We see the faculty around town, go to their local performances, they give masterclasses at our schools, etc. It’s really nice to have a “baseline” to compare to, especially one where my S really likes the sax professor.

Btw, at schools that have “famous” jazz professors, we ask straight out how much time they actually spend on campus and how reliable they are to be there for weekly lessons, etc. Ask students if you can; their answers are sometimes different from the school’s line. It’s also worth checking how long they’ve been teaching there and what their track record is in terms of commitment to a school. Answers vary wildly.

I think that the visits themselves are a learning process; you learn what’s important to your child and to you, the parent, as well. I didn’t know whether I could be comfortable sending my barely-18yo to NYC (to hang out with jazz musicians, no less) but being there, I understood why every jazz musician seems to gravitate there. Yes, the visits can be expensive but they’re ultimately great fun.

FWIW, we’ve decided not to spend the money for a visit to Thornton (USC). He’ll probably apply and if he gets an audition, we’ll have to go there anyway, so will do the visit then.

22

Yes, that’s a reasonable formula (there probably isn’t an “ideal” one - no one size fits all) and, yes, it’s expensive. There’s been a lot of lamenting from parents on here, and rightly so, about how expensive it can be having a kid heading into music. One of the best pieces of advice I’ve heard though is to think of it this way: the money spent on visits and sample lessons (or summer programs) helps make the bigger investment (tuition, etc) more of a sure thing. Additionally, visits and sample lessons can also help increase your odds come audition-time. Not always, but it’s been known to happen. I’ve had admission types admit that kids who actually visit are regarded higher during auditions because they seem more like they “want” to be there. Unfortunately that’s not always true (or even possible), but the reality is that’s how it’s sometimes viewed.

With my daughter it’s been all about the teacher, she really doesn’t seem to care about campus, etc. On our visits this past spring she eliminated two schools from her list because she ended up feeling that she and the teacher weren’t a fit (largely based on communication style/method). At another school she took a lesson with an instructor with whom she worked the previous summer and it only reinforced her desire to study with this person. It also kept her fresh in the instructors mind and she even got a nice email after the fact saying “I hope you audition for my studio”. There was no way to have learned any of that via websites or simply talking to current teachers (case in point, my daughter ended up really liking one instructor who her current teacher doesn’t get along with)

Visits and sample lessons proved to be valuable in both directions - confirming or eliminating.

23

My son only auditioned at 3 and only really wanted to audition at 2. He knew where he wanted to be from the time he was 12. He had been to camps with teachers from 2 of the 3 and had private lessons with each of the 3 schools teachers. We traveled to a 4th and he took a lesson in the summer. He didn’t end up applying there as he did not click with the teacher at all. He knew where he belonged before it even started. He auditioned at Ithaca as a safety. He auditioned at Curtis out of respect for his private teacher who was a graduate and out of respect for the teacher there who had invited him to audition. He had worked with this teacher at a summer camp. He auditioned at Eastman because he had always wanted to go to school there and he loved working with the teacher. He had private lessons with this teacher and went to a summer camp with him. He is incredibly happy at Eastman and it was the right choice.

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Things that moved schools off or down the list:

Didn’t feel she meshed well with the teacher
Didn’t like the “vibe” on campus
School was one of those “maybe this could work” places but it didn’t after all
Teacher or students gave info that indicated school wouldn’t be a match
Couldn’t picture herself in the setting

Things that moved schools up the list:

Good connection with the teacher
Students/campus “felt right”
Scholarship money offered after audition
Positive remarks from other students, faculty about the school

25

The one thing to keep in mind is that there is no guaranteed method, no single ‘trick’ that works. One of the things that makes music so difficult is that the chemistry needs to be there, which depends on both the student and the teacher. And yes, when you are talking schools all over the country, when you are talking cost of flying, hotel, etc, that is easier said then done. And like with a lot of music, actually meeting with teachers may not bear fruit, you might like them in a sample, find out they are a dud in reality, it happens, no different then taking a teacher basically only having auditioned and having them indicate they would like to teach you. Here is my basic summary of ideas, take them for what they are, ideas glimmered from here or there and personal experience (keep in mind my son did something different, he took a shot on a small number of schools and teachers, that was his plan), plus the schools he wanted to go to were mostly local to us. So here is my summary…

1)The first step is obviously through a teacher, or through musicians you know, or can contact. My son learned a lot talking to musicians, working musicians, he came into contact with, they often had a lot of insight into teachers, especially since some of them were fellow performers as well as teachers. You kind of learn which teachers they think are really out to teach musicianship, which seem to have their ear to the ground, and which they think are living in the 1940’s trying to produce the next great soloist or whatnot…or those who have achieved as musicians but can’t teach.

Basically, a form of networking. If you are on a solo instrument, look for students of a teacher, see if they have videos, see what they play like, see if it meshes with what you want. If a teacher is a performer, see how they played. Network with other students on the instrument through various sites (like violin.com), see what others are saying.

With this, you can get an impression.

2)With the school, again, you can do research. Schools often put performances on line, like instant encore, see what the orchestras sound like (and obviously, I am talking classical music here, but same thing for VP, or jazz or whatnot).See how big the program is, see what percent are admitted (that is not particularly scientific, a school could have a relatively large acceptance rate, but a studio could be elite and take a couple of people a year…).

3)See where the teachers teach outside their primary school. For example, you might find a teacher who teaches at Curtis, who also teaches at Peabody, so you may not be able to get into Curtis, but given that the person teaches there, might be a good sign, a possibility.

4)Things like summer festivals and the like can be great places to see teachers, see what they are like. Even if you don’t work with them, you can see master classes and such, or talk to kids working with them, and get an idea of what they are like. Getting coached in chamber can tell a lot, too. For example, one of my son’s potential teachers was coaching at a winter string orchestra program, worked with her, and she went on the list.

More importantly, it gets teachers to know the student, and that can be very, very useful. While students do audition blind and get into studios, I also am convinced that that familiarity can make it a lot easier to get into a studio, since if they have seen the kid, they may be more disposed to taking them, and it makes sense. If you like the kids style, liked the kid, you may remember them, and want to work with them.

5)Likewise, sample lessons is a two way street. One thing to consider, in this day and age of skype and facetime, a teacher may be willing to do it that way, if you cannot afford to get to the schools. Obviously, not all teachers will do this, some might insist on in person, but it is worth a shot.

if you can’t do a sample lesson before, then maybe if at all possible do it around the time of the audition, day of or before or after. Again, it may help, also give you an idea if you want to study with him.

6)After the admissions, you may want to see the teacher then, if not live, via skype or something, Again, to help make the decision.

The key thing is there is no one criteria, there is no magic bullet here, and if you can’t do some of these things, doesn’t mean it is hopeless, the more information you have the better, in person work with the teacher is valuable, but in the end, to a certain extent, it is a leap with any teacher, so know you aren’t jumping off the cliff any differently than other students, believe me. Like admissions itself, the teacher can be something of a crapshoot, and plenty of kids went into it blind and found a great teacher, other kids researched, thought they nailed it, and hated the teacher…don’t freak out if you choose schools and teacher and then select out of the admission schools simply going on what you know, or by gut feeling, in the end, that is what it boils down to.

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Are there any camps that would be considered prime “recruitment” camps, where a capable student might meet or be noticed by either a considerable number or quality of professors, professionals, or scouts? There is one or two college campus visits that ‘S’ is thinking about (such as UNT bass workshop), but other potentials are VixCamp, Abersold Camp, and/or any summer camp or festival that we learn would be very productive. To try not hijacking too badly, I’ll say, :is there a camp or convention that could consolidate and lessen the number of required visits?"

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@GoForth, for jazz bassists–I can’t think of a specific camp where tons of the bass profs attend. I know that a few bass profs attend Abersold and Centrum in Port Townsend, as well as Stanford Jazz Camps but it is hit and miss from year to year who attends what.

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OP here-I’m doing a lot rethinking right now. I think that I want an established music department with a lot of talented students, so that probably crosses Tulane off the list. However, now I’m thinking of looking into schools like IU Jacobs, Michigan, Rice, and UNT again. I previously didn’t look at them because I thought they were too big (the universities themselves). If I attended somewhere like Indiana, how much would I be connected to the larger university; how big exactly would it feel? I don’t want to feel lost in a crowd. Thanks!

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University of Michigan IS a huge school, but the school of music, theater and dance contains 1100 students and is somewhat separate from the rest of the campus. You can enjoy the smaller music school community where you know everyone you run into in the halls, or you can take the bus to central campus and be one of the thousands that attend the university. There are students that rarely leave the music school, and those who count on being able to take a break on the larger campus. My D really enjoys being able to have both experiences.

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Rice is not a large university. It has less than 4000 undergrads. The music school only accepts arpund 8 or fewer undergrad singers a year. There are only 30-40 singers total in the school, including grad students.

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I know nothing about vocal performance but we live in Ann Arbor and Michigan’s Musical Theatre department is obviously very strong and very active. The music theater summer program for HS students (MPulse) was very popular (my S attended MPulse for jazz.) When we visited Jacobs, it was opera that was front and center. Their newest performance venue looked to be designed with opera productions in mind. They also have a vocal jazz program; we saw a performance with Bobby McFerrin and the vocal jazz students.

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@ameliacharlotte:
, it is kind of like living in a big city like NYC, you end up with ‘neighborhoods’ of sorts, whether it is a physical one, or with people you get to know. Music students tend to have their own world, though obviously they meet and interact with other students, too (it depends on the school, some have music students mixed in in terms of housing with other students, others are in their own world. I went to one of the largest private universities in the world, and it wasn’t really overwhelming, in that I met people,made friends, and had a circle of people around me,whether it was dorm mates, or people majoring in the same thing I was:)

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@goforth:
I cannot talk about Jazz bass or with any certainty, but the way it usually works with summer festivals and such is kind of you get ideas from other people in the know, check out who is associated with the festival and if they appear to be teachers your S might be interested in, it might be a draw to go there, assuming that the format of the festival and such also seems good. The real problem with summer festivals is that there usually aren’t the kind of ‘mega festival’ (this is based, obviously, on my experiences through my S with classical music), where a lot of heavy hitters are there, usually festivals may have one or two heavy hitters on the instrument (so at a typical festival involving strings, they might have 5 violin people, but maybe 1 or 2 of them are going to be top level). There are some exceptions to this, a program like Aspen (also known as Juilliard west in some quarters), attracts a lot of heavy hitters…but I also wonder how much exposure you get to those teachers at a place like that.

My take on it is if there are teachers your son really seems to want to work with, to see where they work over the summer (if they do), and if the festival otherwise looks good, then try, but don’t fret if that doesn’t work out. I think finding festivals simply to get the kid in front of teachers that might be worthwhile is like picking a car simply because of the color, festivals also have other aspects to them, too.

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@AmeliaCharlotte I would second what lastbird and singersmom have said based on our visits this spring. Rice is not huge at all. It’s a wonderful campus. Michigan is gigantic (I hated it), but my daughter’s view was “after I get through freshman year and get a lot of my gen ed’s out of the way, I’ll be spending 80% of my time at the music building up in it’s own little corner of campus”. She’s probably right. As for IU, in general is not as big as UM but in some ways UM “felt” smaller because of where the music school is located. At IU Jacobs is more in the middle of things.

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If I attended somewhere like Indiana, how much would I be connected to the larger university; how big exactly would it feel? I don’t want to feel lost in a crowd.

IMO, most of the music schools at universities can be considered small programs in large universities. At IU (where my D graduated), there were about 20 vocalists each year. She knew all the voice faculty. So even though the university is large, the vocal students and staff in number are small. She didn’t feel lost at all at IU.

A few things that may help with your list:
Do you like a conservatory experience or not? Meaning not much academic requirements and a small setting like BOCO that’s all about music? Maybe the urban feel?
Do you like the idea of a conservatory in a university with some gen eds and the bigger environment where it could be mostly music but with some outlets at the school? Like Michigan.
Do you think you would prefer a smaller more tight knit environment where you know most people in and outside of music? Like St. Olaf.
Also keep an eye on acceptance rates - somewhere like Rice is pretty low. If you are auditioning at Juilliard, Curtis and Rice for vocal, those are 3 schools with low acceptance numbers. Michigan, IU, Lawrence, Oberlin are good too with more “typical” acceptance rates. People may feel different on this point but I know IU will accept more in the range of 30+ as opposed to 10ish at Rice. While still hard, the rates are a little higher.

Maybe you don’t know what schools are best. That’s where visiting a few schools can help. We did a big school (IU) and a small (Lawrence). Both have excellent music schools but very different environments. You can then make some assumptions like IU and Michigan are going to be similar in feel. Lawrence and St. Olaf are going to be similar. This is where you can try to meet with a teachers, if possible, which has been discussed already.
Finally, you may want to look closely at: does the school have a graduate program or not? Schools without grad programs are going to put more emphasis on undergrads. You possibly will have more opportunities and attn. Schools with big grad programs (like IU) throw you all in one bucket. You will be auditioning with grad students (and at IU that means some 23-24 year olds but a good number of mid-20 to 30 year olds). In voice in particular it is tough to sing with people a couple years older not to mention 10 years older. It is intimidating. That’s either OK with you or not.

I think your list is good and going around in circles a bit on schools is OK. I told my daughter to have a little variety in case she changed her mind. She was uncertain of school size. At some point, you’ll notice 4 or 5 schools that are always on your list. And again schools where you have relationships are good to keep on your list if possible.

For my D, the list was ever-changing and in the end a few schools were cut due to time. She had no regrets. She did the schools she wanted first and saw how much time she had left. The final choice in undergrad for her was 100% the teacher who contacted her after the audition. IU was low on her list (partly due to grad students) until right around the audition (where the small schools starting looking a little toooo small) and then after based on discussions with the teacher. As you move through the next weeks or months have faith that you will gravitate to a few good schools for YOU - don’t worry about others - they aren’t you.

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@GoForth, I think you asked about Wooten Woods (Victor Wooten’s camp) in a different thread. You know Victor Wooten is a kind of GOD when it comes to bassists. He’s also a really cerebral man, very much into nature. Fascinating, really.

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@ScreenName48105 , I know - it is hard to believe that such access is so open to mere mortals. Seriously. And then Steve Bailey drops in sometimes. It’s not even a college visit, but maybe a good place to get some pointers on where to go next.

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For my d, we r west coast and she knew she wanted east coast. Original list was about 20 but in the end she officially auditioned at 15. We did not have time to previsit any of the schools. From ones that accepted her prescreens and or were automatic auditions we planned a two week east coast trip to audition at 8 schools. She also had several video auditions and a small weekend trip to Ohio to audition at two schools there. In hindsight a lot were stretches (she only had one year of classical singing under her belt and her grades were automatic disqualifies for some schools).

We had a list of her schools in the order she though before she went. We made a list after her auditions. Some moved dramatically based on feel from the audition.

Ultimately, she chose a school that I thought she would never pick, but it ended up being the perfect fit for her. The school assigned her a voice teacher who had planned on retiring this upcoming year. But she and he have made an amazing connection and he is postponing his retirement. Sometimes you never know and believe me I know it’s an expensive gamble.

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Suguti40 makes a good point about surprises and the importance of fit. You mentioned looking into Vassar more. The level of performance is very high and the opportunities may be greater and more varied there for you than at a conservatory. Be sure to apply to two or three ‘no audition’ schools - just be sure to submit a music supplement so they know how serious you are about vocal performance. It will take the stress off all those other auditions knowing that there may be other choices in the spring. Also at Vassar with the B.A. degree, there are more opportunities to explore and double major if you are interested in that. Possibily in the spring, you may decide one of the ‘no audition’ schools is the best fit for you.