<p>You know, Mini, against which schools does GW compete for gymnastics? That can provide a list of sorts.</p>
<p>We've got it....and we have very complete list of which school has what, nationally. Letters have gone out, and DVDs follow likely next month. This is all new territory for a family of "nouns", exciting in its own excruciating College Confidential way, and we are prepared to go back to the drawing boards if for some reason this doesn't work out. We've got the safety school (Western Washington) where she can get a really good education without breaking the bank, and a nice list of schools that match her interests without the gymnastics (money is another issue). It will work out.</p>
<p>I have two questions:
1. Any input on crew, Ivy vs. other Div. I? I know two rowers (U Mich, U Wisc) who quit because they simply couldn't combine varsity crew and their science studies. Are the Ivies different, considering that their crew programs are highly competitive?
2. Is there a forum that discusses recruiting?</p>
<p>Playing any sport on the college level is a job. And while individual sports vary from school to school, team sports require a student-athlete to manage time. Flat out--- to be good---you not only have to practice, but you must adhere to a training and conditioning program in and out of season that is intense. Having played Ivy League football, I'll give you a very brief example. In season--in the weight room at 5:30 am--daily if you are a lineman--- to lift for 90 minutes--squat your weight at least once a week--plus other weight training variations to condition yourself and prepare you for injury recovery. It's football--you will get hurt--it will happen---and you will have to find a way to recover and move on. Then after weight training-- Breakfast-classes-lunch-classes-practice-team meetings/film--then academic preparation that evening-sleep--repeat the process almost every day for many days during the season. Off season--lift and run; you will work to become better---again, by putting in the hours. Playing football was a great experience because it was what I wanted to do. The friendships formed were great--the discipline to perform every day was useful. Was it fun? It was fun to the degree that I made it fun--however, in the end, it was a job. Playing a team sport in college requires an intense commitment--it is not for the high school athlete who believes the experience will be the same as the high school athletic experience. Just the Ivy football perspective from my point-of-view...--the Patriot League perspective probably would be similar---the I-A football perspective would require even more hours of preparation---and the high probability of missing contact hours in the classroom.</p>
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<ol> <li>Any input on crew</li> </ol>
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<p>I knew both Yale and Harvard rowers very well (actually lived with Yale rowers one summer).</p>
<p>In my class, rowers were very well represented among those who graduated magna or summa and those who went on to academically competitive post-grad activities (McKinsey; Harvard Law; Goldman Sachs; etc.). Rowers were represented among demanding honors-only concentrations like Social Studies. I don't have a scientific sample, but I'd guess that rowers were perhaps the most high-achieving group of athletes at Harvard, or close to it.</p>
<p>It seemed to me that male Ivy League rowers disproportionately, though not exclusively, come from the best prep schools and quite privileged backgrounds, so that may play a role in their academic success. (This is less true of female rowers, who are more often recruited from the freshman class and commonly have strong athletic backgrounds but no experience rowing.) But one way or another, they were able to row and still do extremely well in tough academic programs.</p>
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My friend's son was thinking of doing Division I golf and engineering. When he visited Bucknell, he was set straight by one of the eng. professors: "It isn't possible to do a Division I sport and engineering. It just won't work."
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That said, I am sure that some students manage to do both. But in many cases Div I athletes choose easy majors in order to get through.
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<p>When my S was being recruited, we researched the majors of the student-athletes on his prospective teams. It was interesting that, at some schools, the majority of the athletes did not have, what we considered, difficult majors. However, it was not the case at all the schools. S is currently a DI athlete (non-revenue sport which requires a large time commitment) at a large state U with a top 20 engineering program. He and about one-third of his teammates are engineering majors. Others are majoring in the sciences or business. </p>
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On the pre-med and engineering issues, I think that it is generally true that pre-med and engineering, and other majors with labs, are to a large extent impossible given the athletes' schedules of afternoon practices, since I believe that labs are typically also in the afternoon.
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<p>Depending on the school, labs are scheduled during different times of the day with many sections offered in the evening. Student-athletes, at many institutions, have academic advisors that assist in registration. They also have priority registration which enables them to enroll in lab sections that do not conflict with practice schedules. If a conflict occurs, it usually can be resolved.</p>
<p>Well, for whatever reason, these kids do not seem to be choosing engineering. I looked at the Pac10 All-Academic Teams in a number of sports and maybe found one or two engineering majors. There were some difficult majors, but the majority were ones where one could at least theoretically take a relatively easy courseload. You can google Pac 10 All-Academic, or any other athletic conference All-Academic, and see what it looks like. So, if a kid's passion really is engineering and not the sport, say, maybe they have to not go high D1, or they go to a high D1 school (like Stanford) but don't continue with their sport because the academic aspect is more important to them.</p>
<p>I would venture to say that for most of these kids who DO choose the high D1 route, their sport is the reason they get up every morning. Sure, it is hard, but for these kids, it's as Jimmy Dugan said in "League of Their Own":</p>
<p>Baseball is what gets inside you. It's what lights you up, you can't deny that.
Dottie Hinson: It just got too hard.
Jimmy Dugan: It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great. </p>
<p>Do they benefit from being on the teams? Yes, they do. Do they have to make sacrifices along the way? Yes. Is it worth it? Ah, there's the part where the answer is going to be different!</p>
<p>It is true that the kids get some priority in scheduling (not much, actually at Stanford, and it isn't unusual for half the team to arrive late to practice because they had classes til 3). But for example at Stanford, virtually all of the coveted freshman and sophomore seminars do in fact conflict with practices and are only offered in the one time slot, because they are small 12 person seminars with only the one section. Similarly, most of the scholarship athletes really can't go overseas, except during the shortened summer or early fall overseas session that Stanford has created.</p>
<p>I haven't read the entire thread, but this subject has caught my attention recently.</p>
<p>I teach at a Div. I school, and one student in particular--a freshman--has expressed to me her sadness that she cannot be a "normal" college student. The number of hours required for practice makes it impossible for her to participate in anything other than sports, and she and her teammates have curfews that prevent them from having social lives beyond the team itself. This student is extremely bright and does well juggling between academics and sports, but she feels that her playing a varsity sport has made her undergraduate days into a job instead of the growing experience she would like it to be. I'm not privvy to the specifics of her scholarship (if there is one) or to what the details of her training involve, but I do know that she might burn out before she assumes the starting position she is being groomed for.</p>
<p>Nearly half my students are varsity athletes, although many of them are also disappointed ones -- kids who thought they were on a team but who found themselves cut before the season began. Most cope well with the demands of their sports, but some, like the student above, find themselves disillusioned.</p>
<p>Throughout the years as an engineering prof I have had quite a few varsity athletes and the one common thread was their ability to manage there time effectively. I do occasionally have to make accomodations when there are travel conflicts with exams and project submittals though with the internet, this has become a significantly minor problem in recent years.</p>
<p>I did not understand the Bucknell engineering prof's comment to SuNa's son that varsity athletics would be impossible to manage. Perhaps, because Bucknell's engineering college is relatively small, there are sometimes class/lab conflicts which cannot be resolved. Certainly good students can manage the time requirements of engineering and varsity athletics.</p>
<p>Thanks for this thread. My daughter is a good runner, but whenever anyone makes a comment about her college scholarship prospects, I always reply that we really aren't actively pursuing that goal. If asked why, I offer all the reasons listed by previous posters. In doing so, I've noticed that adults who were scholarship athletes in college seldom desire the same for their children. I've also met quite a few parents whose children got the coveted Division 1 scholarship in soccer and to their dismay their daughters quit after a year or two because the game had become mere work and had ceased to be fun, they wanted a normal college social experience, and/or because they wanted to take classes/pursue majors they couldn't under their sports training schedule. When I was in college I watched athletes having to miss quite a few classes a week due to games. I wondered how they could keep up, especially since the one class where I noticed it most was a foreign language course.</p>
<p>If my D wants to run in college and accept a scholarship I won't discourage her, but I've told her that I'd much rather she earn merit money for academics.</p>
<p>We are glad our S was offered an academic merit scholarship, since he will need good grades to have grad school options anyway. He was never a candidate for any athletic scholarship. It is a real commitment when kids accepte athletic scholarship--you have to be very dedicated to keep up with the sport the whole 4 years (or be willing to give it up if it becomes too much). I greatly admire scholar athletes & impressed at those who are able to strike a good balance between sports, academics and socializing.</p>
<p>TheGFC- As my runner-son (recruited) said, "The only schools that would offer me money to run I wouldn't want to go to anyway." He wanted to run in college, but wanted to use his talent to help his admission into the strongest academic school possible.</p>
<p>MomofWildChild: Our sentiments exactly. For the past 5 year we have watched where even the best recruited athletes from our large public HS have ended up. The schools that were giving them supposed "free rides" were academically lower-tier schools my son would have had zero interest in attending. Besides, if he had had interest in a school of that caliber he could have found plenty that would have offered him the equivalent amount of money in academic merit aid anyway. For my daughter we're thinking along the same lines as you: maybe her athletic talent could boost her into a school that her academic record alone might not.</p>
<p>momofwc--that was exactly how my son felt about his sport. he was definitely hoping to turn his athletic skills into a chance at a great education. playing the sport was not the ultimate goal. so in his case, his athletic skills have provided him with a great opportunity.</p>
<p>When my S was going through the recruiting process, we made it a prerequisite that he consider only schools that were good academic matches. The school he chose probably was not the one that would have given him the largest athletic scholarship, but the one that was a good academic match in an environment that he could be happy in for four years. It is also one that we could afford if he decided sometime in the future that he wanted to give up his athletic scholarship and no longer participate in his sport.</p>
<p>"maybe her athletic talent could boost her into a school that her academic record alone might not."
"he was definitely hoping to turn his athletic skills into a chance at a great education."</p>
<p>These thoughts are exactly what we're thinking as our D waits to hear from a Div. 1 school (Colgate) for ED II admission. Her academic record alone would probably not get her into this school, although she is a solid B to B+ student which is decent considering she played a varsity sport every season throughout high school. ( I too admire those scholar athlete types who can seem to pull it all together.)</p>
<p>The question in my mind though is whether she will be able to handle the challenging academics with the sports practice. The in-season schedule seems doable since most of the meets are on the week-end but her social world will revolve around her track team. That's not a terrible thing if she likes the team members. I keep thinking that there will be academic support for her, esp. since it is a Div. 1 school but this may not feel like the way she wants to go through college (You know "the best years of your life" type of feeling). However, I can't think of her not doing some kind of sport since that has been a big part of her life for years now. She has played soccer since she was four.</p>
<p>i can only speak from my son's experience, and i realize that every kid is so very different, but here goes.</p>
<p>my son participated in three varsity high school sports for his first three years of school. his senior year he was allowed to participate in two sports in one season, so he competed on five different teams. his grades and test scores were very good, but his athletic ability allowed him some opportunities that might not have existed otherwise--he would have been "right on the bubble". </p>
<p>he just completed the first term of his freshman year. the time commitment for his sport (division 1) was even greater than we had anticipated. but he loved it! in season he probably spent as many as 4 hours a day on his sport. offseason he will probably spend about 2. he absolutely enjoyed the team. he actually said the best thing about going to school was being on the team and knowing a bunch of people right away.</p>
<p>his grades were excellent. far better than i might have expected with a sport commitment. he did have a mandatory study hall four nights a week and i think that helped him stay focused and on top of things.</p>
<p>so, for my son, it has been wonderful. i am sure that you will hear many positive and negative stories, but only your daughter will be able to decide what will be right for her.</p>
<p>I'm on a Division III team, and even that's very stressful. We practice 2 hours every weekday. However, I'd say that if you love a sport, you should absolutely try out for the team. You have to make sure that you really love the sport, though; otherwise, you'll find halfway through the season that it feels like you're just slogging through practices.</p>
<p>Edit: Also, if you're a freshman like me, sports teams are great opportunities to meet others. So in that respect I'd say that being on a team is more beneficial than detrimental. It's not really hard to stay on top of academics; you just have to be a little better at managing your time. It can get stressful, though.</p>
<p>wbow: I've heard about these mandatory study halls for athletes, but they usually seem to be for the cash sports like football and basketball. Is this a pretty common thing at Div. I schools for all teams do you think? Do you mind sharing what school or at least what sport?</p>
<p>Mandatory study halls are something that are done on a team basis, from what I have seen. There are school that have official study resources for athletes, all NCAA athletes. THe best program I saw was at GW.</p>