How many upper level math/physics courses are typical?

College Majors Science Majors
1

<p>Hey everyone, I was hoping to get some input on upper level course loads. I'm in a CC right now, and majoring in physics...I'm planning on transferring as a double major in physics and math. After transferring, I'll basically be done with all of my geneds, so I'll be going right into my upper level major course work. How many upper level math and physics courses are manageable in a semester?</p>

<p>I'm looking at the classes I'll have to take, plus some electives I want to take within my major, and I'm going to have a lot to get done. Is it unusual to take 3 math courses and 2 physics courses, or 2 math courses and 3 physics courses, in a semester? </p>

<p>I'm the type of person that spends a lot of time studying, and I usual spend my whole weekend buried in my books. I get my problem sets done almost right after they're assigned, and typically try to stay 2-3 sections ahead of the class. How hard would it be to pull off that many courses per semester?</p>

2

<p>A typical course load at most colleges is four courses per semester; at the upper division level, two or three in one’s major would be typical. Note that majors like physics or math each typically need about eight upper division courses out of sixteen that one would typically take as a college junior or senior.</p>

<p>(Of course, the numbers would work differently at colleges on the quarter system or some other unusual calendar and course organization.)</p>

3

<p>in a university on the semester system with a degree that takes at least 120 credits to graduate, you will need to average 15 credits, or 5 courses, a semester. The difficulty when you have completed all your gen-eds at a CC is that those 15 credits need to all be in your major, depending on the number of free electives you have available. What @ucbalumnus says is correct about upper division courses in your major, taking 3, at most 4 will leave you with one course that you need to add and it is obviously not an gen-ed course.</p>

<p>As I advise transfer students at my university, I see this problem all the time and sometimes it has unfortunate results. Since you are planning a double degree/major, you might not have a choice but to take 5 courses in your majors per semester if you want to finish in a reasonable amount of time. It can certainly be done, and I know a number of students who have done this with success. I would recommend that you give yourself a semester of time to adapt and not load up so much the very first semester you have transferred.</p>

4

<p>So far, I’ve figured that my first semester there would be as follows(and this is for UIUC, for the record)-</p>

<p>Math 348- Fundamental Mathematics-basically an intro to proof writing course (4 hrs)
Math 416- Abstract Linear Algebra (3-4 hrs)
Math 441- Differential Equations- I’ll actually be taking a Diff EQ course at my CC, but it transfers as an intro Diff EQ course because it’s 200 level. It’s actually a case where I wouldn’t get credit for both courses, but I’d need 441 for the major. (3-4 hrs)
Phys 225- Relativity and Math Applications ( 2 hrs)
Phys 486- Quantum Mechanics I (4 hours)</p>

<p>So that would give me 16-18 credits. The two math classes can be taken for 3 hours, or an honors section for 4 hours. If I wanted to the honors sequence of real analysis, abstract algebra, advanced analysis, and geometric analysis, I’d have to take an honors section of at least one. Though I don’t know if I’m really concerned about necessarily taking the honors sequence. </p>

<p>Beyond that, with the rough schedule I’ve worked out, I would have to take about 17 hours of upper level classes in my major per semester, and that would still mean staying there for 3 years after transferring. The only way I could get it done in two years would be by not taking any elective courses at all, and I’d really like to take some graduate level classes as some electives before going to grad school. </p>

<p>I’m starting to wonder if I should just forget about the math major, and just minor in math. Every time I consider it though, I worry that I won’t be getting a rigorous enough mathematical education. Looking at some of the semesters I’d have ahead of me though, I would have a lot on my table.</p>

<p>For instance, the spring semester there(my second semester) would entail QM II, classical mechanics I, electromagnetism I, real analysis, and abstract algebra. That sounds like a hell of a course load to take on, and it would stay fairly similar to that throughout.</p>

5

<p>I think your schedule sounds kind of ambitious. I took it “easy” my first quarter while adjusting to college/being on my own as a transfer student and that was rough. It was rough on a lot of people I knew the first quarter, after that it got much better. My grades went from okay to good to great by the end of the year. We had like 4 physics majors in DE with us and one in PDE. Isn’t DE’s and PDE’s enough for a physics major? I don’t know if a physics grad student is gonna need Real Analysis at all.</p>

<p>Maybe it’d be more beneficial to spend your time concentrated on your physics major and doing research. I am taking 2 math and 2 physics in the fall, 3 math and 2 physics in the winter, and 4 math in the spring and I took 3 math this quarter and 1 general ed (ace all your general eds to boost that GPA).</p>

<p>I’d gauge what your teachers are going to be like. Like with PDEs, I knew that professor spent all his time coding, researching at UCSD, and then taught his sections at my school and procrastinated like hell so he could do his research and play with his new guitar. So we only had 4 p-sets. I never, ever missed a single lecture. I always took notes and listened. I spent more time going over the material than I did for any of my other classes. My intro proofs class I knew she was strict and her grader was not kind. So, I paid attention in class when I wasn’t ditching to go to physics seminars, always did the homework, always somewhat studied for the weekly quizzes. On her exams it was all or nothing! My general ed was a no-brainer. Literally, you can spend 2-3 hours going over material if you’ve got a good memory and took decent notes from class and ace your general eds. My stats elective class I ditched practically the entire quarter because he didn’t take attendance and literally regurgitated the book. Still got a 98 on the final. I ask around and see who is the best to take, even if they’re harder. I just look for good teachers. If they’re not and its useless to go to class as well as have no attendance policy, I made more time to study for other classes like PDEs. Something I learned is that you need to make friends as stuff gets harder! I’ve been here for one year and only made one friend who is also an applied math/stats major. It’s good to check answers against each other. I realized if you don’t make friends you can pretty much forget about getting help. The office hours almost always never worked for my schedule from my teachers and the very first day of winter quarter in my DE class I felt so under-prepared for it I went to the tutoring center and no one was able to help me. Luckily I got my butt into gear very fast and things became pretty easy.</p>

<p>In the fall I’m taking Thermal Physics, Real Analysis, Math Methods for Physics, and Numerical Methods. Luckily, I have a friend in Real Analysis and he’s taken NM and I have a friend that is taking Math Methods and Thermal Physics with me. Not going to hurt to have another perspective tackling problems.</p>

6

<p>I’m kind of feeling like I should take it easy my first semester after transferring, but I don’t even know if that will be an option with the number of classes I’ll need to take. I will be used to taking heavy semesters though. This coming fall and spring semesters I’ll be taking 21 credits each semester; calculus, physics, chemistry, anthropology, and spanish. The year after that will likely be fairly similar. Granted these are lower level courses, but it will still be a challenging course load.</p>

<p>I’ll be done with all of my geneds before transferring, so I won’t have those taking up space in my schedule. I’ve got a 4.0 right now, and I’m going to do everything in my power to keep it that way. </p>

<p>I do realize that a lot of this math may not strictly be necessary for a physics major, but a lot of that depends on what field you ultimately want to go into. My biggest interests lately really lie in particle physics, and ultimately string theory. These are VERY math intensive fields. Here’s a list of the types of math that are frequently used in the research of String Theory (click next over on the right side to go to the next page)</p>

<p>[Guide</a> to math needed to study physics](<a href=“http://www.superstringtheory.com/math/index.html]Guide”>http://www.superstringtheory.com/math/index.html)</p>

<p>I tend to be pretty good at making friends and getting study groups together, so that’s definitely something I would be working on right away after transferring. I’m something of an introvert and I spend a lot of time sitting at home studying the night away, but I’m also a fairly social person when I want to be. Working through problems with other people definitely takes some of the stress out of it though, because you can get multiple perspectives.</p>

7

<p>I would not recommend this at all. Five upper division courses in these majors is more than most people can handle, especially if you have never taken any upper division courses before and at a highly rated physics program like Illinois. I would suggest that you do a math minor instead of the full major. Even in string theory (my major adviser is a string theorist) they are not nearly as rigorous with math and one can learn the necessary math in graduate school/independently.</p>

8

<p>I think I’m finally starting to accept that a double major might not be feasible in my situation. It’s unfortunate…and I’m still trying to fight that realization, but I think that’s going to end up being the case. How does this sound for a first semester schedule after transferring?</p>

<p>Phys 225- Relativity and Math Applications (2 hrs)
Phys 486- Quantum Mechanics I (4 hrs)
Mat 441- Differential Equations (3 hrs)
Mat 348- Fundamental Mathematics (4 hrs)[it’s 4 hours because it has an added writing component that takes care of an advanced composition requirement]</p>

<p>That would give me 13 hours for the first semester. </p>

<p>Then the following spring semester, to stay on track I would basically have to take-</p>

<p>Phys 325- Classical Mechanics I (3 hrs)
Phys 487- Quantum Mechanics II (4 hrs)
Phys 435- Electromagnetism I (3 hrs)
Math 416- Abstract Linear Algebra (3 hrs)</p>

<p>For a total of 13 hours.</p>

<p>Does this seem any more feasible? </p>

<p>The math minor would consist of roughly 6 courses. I’m thinking these would likely be the best courses for me to take-</p>

<p>Fundamental Mathematics
Complex Variables
Intro to Partial Differential Equations
Elementary Real Analysis
Differential Geometry
Vector and Tensor Analysis
(the Math 441- Differential Equations, and the Math 416- Abstract Linear Algebra courses are both requirements for the physics major)</p>

<p>From what I can figure out now, it would still likely take me 3 years after transferring, which I’m not opposed to at all, but I’d have a little bit more breathing room, rather than loading up to the max with a ton of extremely difficult courses each semester. In lieu of some of the math courses I would have liked to take, I could use a two course graduate level “Math Methods in Physics” sequence as some of my elective credit too, which would cover a lot of the material that I would be missing.</p>

9

<p>I took four upper/graduate level STEM courses last semester and given the workload (and the fact I was also taking non STEM classes), I wouldn’t recommend it.</p>

10

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<p>I won’t be taking any non-STEM classes though. By the time I transfer, I will have every single one of my geneds completed. So, every course I’ll take after transferring will be math or physics, plus a couple introductory computer science courses. </p>

<p>I think not having any GenEds will make it considerably easier. Yes, I’ll have some rough course loads, but I won’t have to worry about reading hundreds of pages in humanities and social science classes, or writing research papers or anything like that.</p>

11

<p>Classical, quantum II, and E&M the same semester will suck.</p>

<p>Regarding math courses you listed: complex analysis and PDEs are very useful for physics majors. Differential geometry is also cool to learn, but it doesn’t really come up until grad physics and will be taught in a way that is useless to you (I basically relearned it all when I took general relativity).</p>

12

<p>I’ve actually done a little more research, and it looks like I’d be able to take the Relativity and Math applications class, as well as the Fundamental Mathematics class over the summer. So, basically right after I finish at my CC, I’d be able to transfer to UIUC for the summer semester. That would put me in a better position. Then I’d be able to start classical mechanics and EM right away. That being the case, I’d probably wait until the second year at UIUC to take quantum.</p>

<p>That would give me a first semester schedule that looked something like this-</p>

<p>Classical Mechanics I(3 hrs)
Electromagnetism I(3 hrs)
Abstract Linear Algebra(3 hrs, or an honors section for 4 hrs)
400 level Differential Equations(3 hrs)</p>

<p>How does that sound?</p>

<p>I’ve heard similar things from other people regarding differential geometry. Complex analysis and PDE’s will definitely be some of my selections. I may hold off on diff geometry until grad school though.</p>

13

<p>That looks more reasonable; ODEs will almost certainly be less work than quantum.</p>

<p>By the way, that’s not to say “definitely don’t take differential geometry.” If you’re interested in the subject for its own sake it could still be a cool class. I just wouldn’t prioritize taking it over other stuff you’re more interested in like I might suggest for complex or PDEs.</p>

14

<p>The Differential Equations class shouldn’t be too bad in comparison to QM. I’m actually taking a Diff EQ class at my CC, but it’s a 200 level course. It would transfer as Math 284, but the Diff EQ class I’d be taking this first semester after transferring would be Math 441. It’s actually a case where I wouldn’t get credit for both the 284 and the 441, but having a very solid grounding in Diff EQ is quite important for physics from everything I’ve gathered, so I’m thinking that it would be a good idea to take a more advanced ODE course, especially since I’m going on to do PDE’s afterwards. </p>

<p>Differential geometry does strike me as being an incredibly fascinating topic. I’m still obviously undecided on what courses I’ll take as far as upper level math electives go, but that’s definitely towards the top of the list. What do you think about Vector and Tensor Analysis? Would that be a good choice for a math elective?</p>

15

<p>Would more advanced abstract algebra courses be a good idea? I’ll be taking Abstract Linear Algebra(possibly an honors section). The course that would come after that in the “sequence” would be Intro to Abstract Algebra. Would it be a good idea to take something like that?</p>

16

<p>The vector and tensor analysis class looks like it’s just a more physics-oriented version of differential geometry</p>

<p>Basic group theory is good to know for physics, as is some of the stuff in a more proof-based linear algebra course. You’d learn most of the relevant linear stuff in quantum anyway, and the abstraction will not be super helpful, but you’d get something out of either course. So basically: take them if you’re interested, but if you don’t you’ll pick up what you need to know for physics anyway.</p>

17

<p>Yeah, I’m not only trying to take classes for their applicability to physics. I’m also very interested in math in general. At times, I’ve even considered just switching to a math major, but I’ve never really seriously considered it. In either case, I do have a huge interest in math.</p>

<p>From what I can tell too, the more advanced abstract algebra course is a prerequisite for the grad level real analysis and functional analysis courses that I’d like to take too. </p>

<p>Some type of group theory is something that I’d like to try and squeeze in as well. Specifically, something along the lines of Lie Groups. But, I’ll only be able to take so many courses unfortunately. That might have to wait until grad school. I don’t know if I’ll even be able to take all of the courses that I’d like to take. It all depends on how long I spend finishing my bachelors.</p>

18

<p>You definitely don’t want to take grad real analysis “for fun.” That class will suck; you do it because you have to, and the class will likely have a ton of work because it’s one of the core phd classes for math grad students. In fact, that would be my first guess as to the most work-intensive class in a typical math department. Functional analysis could be cool though.</p>

19

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<p>The grad level Real Analysis class is actually one of the only upper level math classes they offer in the summer, and is actually the ONLY grad level math class they offer in the summer. That’s most likely when I’d be taking it, if I did take it. That’s obviously still up in the air though. If I wanted to take functional analysis though, it would be a prereq. From what I’ve gathered, functional analysis would be a pretty beneficial course to take.</p>

20

<p>Are you planning to go to grad school? If you are, your summers would be much better spent doing research than taking random classes.</p>

<p>I also doubt functional analysis will really be “beneficial”; it’s true that its kind of the language of quantum mechanics, but you’ll spend your time proving abstract things rather than learning anything applicable. Like most upper division math courses, anything you gain physics-wise will not be very comparable to the effort put into the course.</p>