<p>I think they like the kids to have one or more physics APs & a calc AP, if at all possible. It does depend on what the child is interested in & what schools the child is considering.</p>
<p>Well he is taking AP Physics now and will take AP Calc BC next year. The question is - what's great about the Latin AP that JHS seems to know?</p>
<p>That was a moot point for us. We don't have any language APs in our school. JHS, if you coulda met the latest language teacher S had, you would understand. He learned pretty much nothing junior year, and the class size fell by about 75% by senior year--and these were all honors level students who knew they might be shooting themselves in the foot by not continuing.</p>
<p>I'm glad the admins S ran into didn't see it as a lack of staying power.</p>
<p>Mom2Two, My son was (is) also language adverse. He took two years each of two different languages with lackluster grades in both. We did a lot of research into how much of a liability this would be for him in college and this was our conclusion. </p>
<p>In the end he was accepted ED to a very selective school, one selected (in part) because they have NO language requirement for graduation.</p>
<p>There are two sides to this coin: what you need to get in and what you need to graduate once you matriculate.</p>
<p>Colleges vary widely in admissions. Many RECOMMEND three years of the same language. We were told by the admissions rep one most selective ivy that they just take it for granted that their top applicants will have multiple years of language to the point of fluency. Bear in mind, however, that this is often a recommendation, not a strict requirement. </p>
<p>If your daughter decides not to take a language in her Junior/Senior years then she must have a good reason for it. A good reason could be scheduling conflict or precedence given to other special interests. If she drops the language it should be because she wants to do something else that will have a positive impact on her application, not because she just doesnt like language or finds it difficult. In other words, dont drop language in order to have a lighter schedule. For my son, because of circumstances, it made sense to take two years of two languages and this didnt seem to have much bearing on his eventual acceptance to a selective college.</p>
<p>Once shes admitted she needs to look at the schools language proficiency requirements. Some schools have none. Some require that you take a test to determine your proficiency. Or they may use your SATII or AP score as the determining factor. If it is determined that she is not proficient enough she may be facing one or even two years of college level language. For the language adverse, this can be sheer torture, so depending on what colleges she is interested in, she may be better off gaining proficiency in high school rather than delaying until college.</p>
<p>The key points are what you take instead of language in your 11-12 years and how you'll do once you matriculate if you choose a school with a language proficiency requirement.</p>
<p>Well, I come from the perspective of having 2 sons who quit language after 10th grade and are now attending top 15 schools. They both had 7th/8th grade count as HS Spanish I, then took Spanish II and III. Neither had stellar grades (I recollect B-'s and C's) and were accepted at their universities just the same. S1 goes to a school that requires language proficiency and he started anew with Russian in college and achieved proficiency after 1 year of study. S2 attends a school with no language requirement. My D is in the same boat and is currently a HS senior in the throes of the admissions process. I'm just not worried...at least about the effect the lack of additional language will have. I'm far more concerned, given the increased level of competitiveness in college admissions now (2+4 years later), about the effect of the lower grades on her transcript. I had this conversation with her dean, and she agreed with my thinking that language teaching in college is far superior for many kids because the classes tend to be smaller and require language lab or drill sessions on the days when class does not meet. Though my daughter met with very little success in HS language classes, she is actually excited about the prospect of starting anew in college and has not eliminated any schools becasue of a language requirement. To the OP, I wouldn't worry about it.</p>
<p>While I agree that language proficiency is a worthy goal most high schools teach languages at a snail's pace. In one year in college I covered at least three years of what would have been taught in high school - maybe four.</p>
<p>As a public h.s. foreign language teacher, I can comment on the "snail's pace" that most high schools follow for language instruction. Since Spanish I and II are non-honors courses, teachers get a wide range of academic ability within each class section. To move as quickly with instruction as colleges are able to do would be disastrous for at least half of the class. Yes, the brighter kids could handle a faster pace, but we must teach to a level where everyone who truly pays attention and studies can pass the course. </p>
<p>At our school, we are on the 4 x 4 block scheduling plan, whereby Spanish I is a one semester course in the fall and Spanish II is a one semester course in the spring. We have learned that in order to adequately cover all the material that we want to teach in such a short time that we do better without the use of textbooks. I will say that we do a fairly good job of covering ALL the indicative tenses by the end of Spanish II. All of that is done in one year's time since the students take both I and II over that same one-year period. The subjunctive mood is reserved for levels III and IV. Beginning with level II, we begin an attempt at immersion; in levels III and IV, total immersion in the language is required throughout the class period.</p>
<p>After forcing S to take one extra year of Spanish in 10th grade, I realized it was my mistake. Theoretically, I think someone should take one language until proficient. However, at HS, the Hispanic kids take same class with nonHispanics. Verbal ability counts heavily. No matter how many parents requested a placement exam or separate classes, it was useless. I found the attitude of teacher appalling. Taking Latin at local college was far better solution. In hindsight, I'd advise others to take any language but Spanish. Having studied 4 languages myself, back in the stone ages, it seems such a shame that Spanish was least favorite class</p>
<p>bookworm, I agree with you. There are several students in my son's school who are fluent in Spanish b/c it is spoken at home, and some have been schooled in Spanish speaking countries during elementary school years. In fact, one student's mother teaches Spanish in another school district. It is a joke, and an easy A for them. It is hardly fair to those new to the language, in class, and during the admissions process.</p>
<p>BTW, my son also investigated schools as to whether he would be required to take a foreign language to graduate. It really helped make the list shorter. There were some schools that fit well, but foreign language requirements in college was the deal breaker.</p>
<p>Other possible foreign language requirements at college: Some schools may allow a number of courses to be taken P/F. Some allow a foreign culture class to satisfy all or some of the requirement.</p>
<p>Someone I know took a semester of a foreign culture class, and then 3 weeks of Russian during winter break (saving it for senior year)-4 hours/day. He graduated! BTW, did he learn any Russian? Answer: No!</p>
<p>In our school, they have two tracks: regular HS Spanish, and Spanish for Native Speakers. Makes a lot more sense.</p>
<p>Our school also puts the native Spanish speakers in the regular Spanish classes too. Last year when S failed a test he tried to appease me by saying "My friend xyz failed too and he's Puerto Rican!"</p>
<p>It's not at all uncommon for the native speakers to fail Spanish tests. Our school mixes the native speakers with the others, also, but the native speakers more often than not do not make higher grades than those new at the language. We find that many of our native speakers do not know how to spell what they are saying and know nothing about accent mark placement. This is because many have moved to our country after having begun their education in very poor quality schools. They have never learned many basics about phonics, spelling, etc. They may outperform the new speakers on oral work, but most of my classes' grades come from written work, and that is where they (native speakers) really struggle.</p>
<p>It's tough to teach languages. Most teachers aren't up to the job - they either don't know the language well enough or don't know how to do it in a fun, effective way. Which is too bad, because yes, learning languages can be both. For those of you whose children like but are frustrated in their language classes - I'd recommend exploring the community college option, where odds are the instruction will be at a much higher level. </p>
<p>Between H & me, we speak 7 languages. And we despair at what passes for language instruction in public schools. We sent D to Argentina for 6 months to learn Spanish as a high school junior (after 3 years of high school her Spanish was nearly non-existent.) And we opted out of Spanish for S, who is in middle school, and whose teacher's Spanish/French is so bad, she sends homework home with fairly serious grammatical errors in it.</p>
<p>"The question is - what's great about the Latin AP that JHS seems to know."</p>
<p>Well, I'm not JHS, but my son has taken both Latin APs and they seemed to be the natural progression from learning a language (learning vocab and grammar rules) to actually reading and interpreting the language. It was a culmination of sorts of all those years of study -- the prize is to read the great works in their original language and discuss the word choice or meter or phraseology in that language. By comparison, my son is frustrated that they are discussing the Iliad in his English class -- since you miss so much by reading it in English. But, if the student doesn't love Latin literature and hasn't spent the past three years waiting to read the Aeneid or Catullus' poetry, then it may be a waste.</p>
<p>Actually, it depends on the teacher and the school. In our school, the natives are in a separate class for Level I and II done in one year. Believe me, most of the natives we see think they know Spanish, but they are illiterate in the language. They then go into Spanish III Reg or Honors. And I get the flack because I demand they speak Spanish in class and we tackle advanced issues of grammar, etc., but most of the parents don't care if the kids learn anything, just that they get their 3 years in so they can get the distinguished diploma! I get more complaints because I am too hard, never that I don't teach them. And I speak, read and write 4 languages. Nevertheless, I keep my backbone stiff and continue to be demanding, not winning an popularity contests, but the Level IV and AP teachers love getting my kids. BTW, few natives do well in Spanish, because they think they know everything and don't open the book, and think their Tex-mex word for something is correct, and don't bother to learn the words used in the other three dialects that we compare all the time. Those who think any native is an automatic A should look to see if all the American kids pass English! Being a native does not automatically make success in the study of foreign language. We aim to teach more than just speaking - reading and writing carry weight, too. We want our kids to sound educated in the language, not just a product of immersion, which works for communication on a daily basis, but does not allow you to represent your company in the contract negotiation.</p>
<p>BurnThis,</p>
<p>Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.</p>
<p>Sorry, just imagining my son waiting three years to read the Aeneid and Catullus. He waits a year for the new Pokemun or a few months for the next Killers track....</p>
<p>Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. OMG. Best laugh I've had all day. What my son is really waiting for is for me to buy him 'spinners' for the 15-year old Toyota he just inherited from me. OMG. Can't even catch my breath....</p>
<p>And to think that I majored in Comp Lit and wrote my senior thesis on the catalogues of great epic poetry and the action of metaphor and metonymy in that trope. Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha.</p>
<p>S had to write a poem for English last night. He said "Yeah, I just put down a whole bunch of pretentious crap. It's good." Then he said, "Do you remember when I was in 7th grade and wrote that poem in the style of Emily Dickinson and it was in, like, perfect iambic pentameter or whatever her thing is?" A ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.</p>
<p>Look, to each his own. You either buy into this "education" stuff or not. I would have apoplexy if one of my kids said something like that, and meant it. I would have apoplexy if one of my kids said something like that, and meant it, about some scientific topic, too. The issue hasn't come up.</p>
<p>It's sad that your son has had to spend years studying Latin just to get qualified for college, and without having a chance to do (or any interest in doing) the things for which people study Latin. So I stand by my original position: I don't think he's meeting the spirit of the language-study recommendation. But that's pretty obvious.</p>
<p>Those students that I know who already know Spanish were getting As in Spanish with very little effort. They begin with Spanish I. We do not have a district large enough to hold seperate classes for native speakers, and these students are not held to a higher standard. In fact, they need to disclose prior knowledge of the language to anyone. I really find it unfair, but "c'est la vie".</p>
<p>Hey, hey, lighten up. Of course I buy into this education stuff. My dad was a professor at Stanford for 40 years. I sent a D to Princeton. I went to Princeton. Many people in my family have gone to Harvard. And Berkeley and UCLA and Wesleyan. We believe in education. And for its own sake, not for prestige etc.</p>
<p>My son didn't spend years studying Latin just to get qualified for college. He really liked it the first two years - not for the literature per se but for the system aspects and for the word roots. As a little guy he was obsessed with anagrams. This was sort of the next step.</p>
<p>Who the hell knows what the spirit is of the language-study recommendation? I bet that studying Latin for 2 years and enjoying the system on which Romance Languages are based, and then meeting some kids who speak a modern instantiation of a Romance Language, and deciding to learn that actual spoken language, I bet it counts. At base, a language is a system of meaning before it is a tool for literature.</p>
<p>I was just laughing sardonically. Perhaps I should have said mwahahahahah. My little guy who wanted to learn Swedish and read the New Yorker and played anagrams and learned all the bugs in the California Insect Handbook turned into someone who has a non-academic vision for his adult identity. He hasn't lost the brain, just has gained a desire to be a different sort of man. I myself, I just laugh thinking about what it would be like to have a scholarly son. But more power to those who do and to their kids.</p>
<p>Please, I hope you didn't think I was ridiculing you or your son. I wasn't. I was just having a good chortle at the impact of testosterone in my house.</p>
<p>Alumother: I apologize, I was being a little harsh. But I was pretty shocked.</p>
<p>I liked the systematicity of Latin, too, but every European language has essentially the same system; Latin is just taught more systematically than the others, by tradition. Still, I think one of the points of language study is to get access to something directly that you wouldn't otherwise have had access to, in part to appreciate how much it's possible to lose in translation. And to do that, you have to go all the way to actual language use, not merely learning a bunch of conjugations, declensions, and vocabulary.</p>
<p>Look, my son still goes to every Magic: The Gathering tournament or release party he can, and his iPod is welded to his ear. But he's liking Cicero in his Latin IB course, too.</p>
<p>(Latin is plenty testosterone-friendly. I still remember my first weeks of Latin and Spanish in 7th grade. In my Spanish class, we learned how to say "Juan goes to the store. He buys milk." In my Latin class, we learned "Marcus Manlius conquers Gaul and carries off the women.")</p>