how much do "connections" help when applying to an ivy league?

<p>To further illustrate the point, here’s one data point supplied by Daniel Goldin, who has written extensively about legacy admissions in the Wall Street Journal and in a book titled “The Price of Admission”:</p>

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<p>That’s an ENORMOUS advantage. And consider that the non-legacy rate will also include some recruited athletes and URMs who may be getting their own “thumb on the scale,” so that the true admit rate for non-hooked applicants—non-legacy, non-URM, non-recruited athlete—is probably even smaller. Sure, some non-hooked applicants get in. But my rough guess is that at the most selective schools the non-hooked applicant needs to be somewhere in the top quartile statistically to have the same chances of admission as the legacy with merely average stats for the school.</p>

<p>Here is what I have learned from this threat:</p>

<p>I knew all along the elites are bastions of privilege, and have said so for years on CC. These threads on legacies have done nothing to alter my mind. If anything, they only add further weight to my position.</p>

<p>The primacy of self-interest- whatever one’s political orientation, when it comes to personal self-interest, everything else pales. Ayn Rand was right, and I am correct in analyzing things “geopolitically”.</p>

<p>My main concern here is how the elites try to have their cake and eat it too. While serving the privileged, they also try to appear as bastions of meritocracy. By obscuring the difference between privilege and merit, the elites are able to put a lot more of their alumni into positions of power and influence than their ability would suggest. This increases the desirability of an elite education, which only make the elites even more ““elite””.</p>

<p>The downside of this is obvious to anyone who has followed political and economic development around the world this last couple of decades. These folks with power and privilege have certainly not served America well.</p>

<p>As I see it anyway.</p>

<p>Canuck-
I for one agree with you. It isn’t that I don’t think that Ivy league schools aren’t great schools, they are, and the reputations they have is not just pr, they have been able to attract the best and brightest, despite the legacy stuff, and as a result they also can attract great teachers and so forth. </p>

<p>You are correct,too, when some talk about things like meritocracy as an argument against things like affirmative action, that things should be based on merit, and talking out of both sides of their mouths. Colin Powell made a remark about that, he said that those upset about affirmative action that helps a relatively few number of people often were defenders of systems that did just that, like legacies. (One of the ironies is that conservatives often point to Colin Powell as an example of someone who made it ‘without Affirmative action’. What they leave out is that as talented as he is, if it weren’t for affirmative action type policies, he probably would not have risen as high as he did. The armed forces adopted policies that targeted talented, bright, promising minority officers in the late 1950’s, realizing that the culture of the military still was heavily influenced by the segregated Army of past years…). One of the interesting things is if you look closely at the legacy system, the one thing that defenders of it throw out there is the idea that 'these kids and their families donate a lot of money, that lets other kids go there and have scholarships, the library, etc"…if in fact legacy students were, as claimed (and seemingly disproven) simply better equipped, why bring that up? The reason is they know darn well the legacy process doesn’t bring extra benefit to the school, that legacy kids are not in many cases ‘the best of the best’, but it is an old tradition, one that those running the schools were part of as well, and so forth. </p>

<p>It is why Ayn Rand and her followers are not telling the whole truth, because as with legacy admissions, they don’t want to point out the unearned privilege many of them have had in achieving success. Despite what that horrible woman said, few people are successful do to their own efforts alone; it takes mentoring, it takes access to networks, it takes of course hard work and talent, and often what gets you the access and the networks is who you are. The legacy kids at the Ivies get in there because of a network of wealth and privilege (and class as well), and because they are there, they hook up with other people (with or without the help of family and rich friends) and are given access others don’t have…David MaCollough the historian has said that Americans operate under the myth of the self made man, the rugged individualist, doing things by the sweat of their own brow and such, but as he says, investigate their life and you will find probably 10 people who have helped them on that path. Andrew Carnegie, who was a bright, talented man, would not have been successful had he a)not been a Scotch Protestant b)not had the luck of being discovered by mentors and c)not had the opportunity of time and place to be where such a fortune could be wrought (read the last Carnegie Biography, trying to remember the author’s name).</p>

<p>With the Ivies, you also have to look at the history of them. By the 19th century, these were the stomping grounds of the ‘old money elite’, where they were being groomed to take over in the familiy business, whether it was politics, industry,mercantile or finance, or in many cases, living off the money an entrepeneurial ancestor left and learning the social niceties of Greek and Latin and Elocution,and maybe Math and perhaps some science if they were inclined to it (like Theodore Roosevelt, for example). In one of my better college courses, the professor pointed out the tension between the old guard elite, who were anti imperialist, bound by a rigid social structure and were champions of 'traditonal culture as opposed to the nouvea rich industrialists, with their crass attention to fortune and lack of caring about ‘tradition’. And it was a war of sorts; there is a reason that MIT, which was founded by industrialists who knew they needed scientists and engineers to drive their business, is in Cambridge alongside Harvard (where the idea of a college education being about pragmatic skills needed in industry would have been considered gauche and ridiculous), it was a direct shot across the bow. It was not until the turn of the 20th century that Ivies caught up to the idea of practical education…</p>

<p>The legacy system in a sense, at least at the ivies, reflects those old school values, where the idea is to get kids of a certain class into “Alma Mater”, so they too can carry on the chain, meet the right people, and then get out there. It obviously is not the same as the 19th century, it is a bit more then a finishing school, but the big point about accessing networks and such is still quite valid IMO.</p>

<p>As someone who attended one of the schools often attacked for such “preferences”, and was admitted there with one high school graduate parent, I can only yawn at an extended discussion over Duke’s legacy admittees scoring 6 points per section below students whose parents held professional degrees.</p>

<p>Good luck with the whining.</p>

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Of course, the private universities have no obligation to show you any data, nor do they have any reason to want to do so. In fact, it’s in their best interest to leave the question of legacy preference vague–it’s in their interest for alumni to believe in it, and for others to question it.</p>

<p>And as to the elites being the bastions of privilege: if they haven’t succeeded in fooling you, I wish they would get rid of all this financial aid for less privileged students, so more of the truly privileged could get in. (Harvard provided $158 million in financial aid to students this year, with 60% of undergrads getting financial aid. It would be very interesting to know what percentage of legacies are full pay, as opposed to the other applicants.)</p>

<p>Well for one, think about it from the colleges point of view. They need money; schools like HYP dont have top notch facilities from the government. </p>

<p>A good majority of students who come into those schools get at least a part of their tuition paid for them (HYP admits a lot of poorer students). How is it possible to continue to provide these expensive services to their students if they dont have any money coming in? </p>

<p>Answer: its paid for by the FEW rich kids who come in. Because of this, these schools are still able to maintain a community where the majority got in on merit with a few there just to maintain the facilities of the campus. </p>

<p>I think that doing that is much better than barring the poorer kids from getting in</p>

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<p>I agree, it would be interesting to see. But keep in mind, Harvard gives financial aid to kids from households earning up to $200K. If 60% of undergrads get FA, I think we can conclude that 40% come from households earning > $200K. But since households earning $200K+ represent about 2.65% of all households, I hardly think the well-to-do are underrepresented at Harvard.</p>

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<p>Well, no. Harvard’s roughly $30 billion endowment pays out (at the standard 5%) about $1.5 billion a year. The revenue generated by full-pay undergrads is pocket change in comparison. And Harvard insists it costs more to give each undergrad a Harvard education than even the full-pays pay in tuition. In other words, Mother Harvard subsidizes EVERY undergraduate, full-pays included. There’s no cross-subsidization of students on FA by full-pays. Not even close.</p>

<p>I find it interesting that the ground has now shifted and the last couple of posts are now apparently pleading that elite colleges need to give a legacy preference because they need the money that full-pays provide. Hah! If that’s the case, then why don’t they just be honest and say they’re no longer need-blind? And if they need the money, a legacy preference seems an awkward and inefficient way to get there. At least some of the parents of Harvard legacies are history professors or government lawyers or heads of NGOs who don’t make $200K/year. </p>

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<p>Really? I wonder how much NSF and NIH and DOE and DOD money goes into those fancy research labs every year? I wonder how many billions in federal, state, and local tax deductions and tax exemptions went into building the endowments that built those labs and libraries and office buildings? I wonder how much they save each year by being exempt from local property taxes? I wonder how many millions they bring in from federal Pell grants and federally subsidized student loans going directly into their coffers? The idea that these elite private schools aren’t hogs at the public trough is risible.</p>

<p>Thanks for the response, musicprnt. You made some excellent points.</p>

<p>I always see AA not as something in opposition to privilege but a natural extension of it. In order to make their place as livable as possible for the scions of the privileged, the elites must allow a certain number of URMs in, even if they have to lower admission requirements and even if they have to admit children of privileged immigrants to do so. We all remember Yale and the Black Panthers, right? </p>

<p>Furthermore, it is important to remember that the greatest winners from AA are privileged white women. IOW, you can appear to be helping the less privileged (and those lucky sperms would be eternally grateful) while you are really helping your own. What not to like?</p>

<p>If the core of my theory holds, then this stuff about caring for the poor is also pure window dressing. Without even looking at the numbers, I predict the amount spend on student aid is no more than a drop in the bucket of the annual expenditure, even when you redefine poor as those families earning up to 150 thousand a year.</p>

<p>I am no dogmatist and I do not mind being proven wrong. I much rather look at the data and find a theory that fits the evidence instead of looking for evidence to fit my theory. If someone can come up with a simpler and more elegant theory that can explain all the evidence available, I would love to hear it.</p>

<p>As the parent whose children got into Ivy League schools without being legacies, or development cases, or underrepresented minority students, or athletes, I know how hard it is to compete without one of these preferences, but I think they are completely valid considerations for admissions departments. They contribute to schools in a variety of ways. Legacy admits help foster a relationship with a school that continues through the generations. Development admits help pay for scholarships for students who could otherwise not afford these schools, and they contribute in many other ways as well to the financial well-being of schools. Underrepresented minority students ensure that not everyone thinks or looks alike. It is no secret that successful athletic teams attract both applicants and financial contributions. Artists contribute to intellectual diversity. Who would want to attend a school made up entirely of kids with straight A’s and high test scores?</p>

<p>SoCal-</p>

<p>There is no problem with legacy admits, what people have problems with is admitting legacy students who in other circumstances wouldn’t be admitted and if the stats that are coming out are correct, actually don’t bring much with them other then being a legacy. The argument that legacy students, being from better backgrounds, get in because they have achieved more has been blown to pieces, stats indicate that in general legacy students, despite their advantages, don’t in general meet the levels of other admits. The big one that has been used for years by schools is that legacy admissions in the end mean more money in donations for the school, into the schoolthat the legacy kids support the lesser advantaged ones, etc, and what statistical analysis shows time and again that argument doesn’t hold true, that giving by donors doesn’t increase because of legacy admit policies, the schools themselves have said it. </p>

<p>The problem with the way these are done is the problem. If the school was giving a preference to legacy kids who had otherwise shown achievement levels standard for the school, no one would argue it as an ‘edge’ factor, but when it is used to admit kids who frankly despite all the privileges they had can’t make the grade, why admit them? If they don’t bring any more money to the school in donations, what do they bring as a kid who frankly had the privilege and blew it off? More importantly, it might be better to admit another kid who actually had higher levels of achievement and was not given a slot because of a legacy preference, because maybe they had worked hard to get to where they were and might actually bring more to the school. And based on my experiences in college, and friends and relatives of mine who went to ivy league and similar class schools, the kind of legacy admits we are talking about generally don’t give a crap about the school or bringing anything, they tend/tended to be kids like the girl in the OP, who basically had this incredible sense of entitlement about going to a tough school to get into, a birthright, and when they get there they generally are nowhere near the cutting edge of much of anything. Ever hear of Gentleman C’s? They still exist, the most recent book about legacy preferences and ivy league schools basically said what I am saying, that the kind of legacy admits we are talking about, the ‘automatics’, usually are undistinguished as students and don’t really do much in college…so why isn’t it ridiculous to admit these kids? At least with things like regional preferences, background, AA and the like, they try to admit kids who really want to be part of the school, who really will do things to be part of the community, who despite claims to the contrary had to fight to get in, even with preferences? There is an irony to this, too. Many of the people who get legacy benefits for their kids who otherwise wouldn’t make the grade are often the first people to complain that AA and other such preferences aren’t fair, that things should be based on merit only. How is admitting a kid who had all the privileges in the world, who had top notch schools and access to cultural events and tutors and so forth, who basically either wasn’t good enough or diligent enough to get the kind of grades generally needed for admission, about merit? The only kind of merit seems to be being a member of a certain group of people who aren’t exactly unprivileged and don’t seem to bring much except that a family member went there…</p>

<p>I don’t understand why everyone trashes Ivies in particular for legacy admissions—does anyone think for a minute that St Hildegard on the Hill does not also admit legacies? </p>

<p>Oh, the big problem is that not as many peoples’ children want to go to St Hil’s as want to get into Harvard, well — too bad. Harvard has as much right to try to promote “development” as St Hildegard’s does. That’s part of why their endowment is where it is, because they have done so for the last, what, 400 years? </p>

<p>My husb went to Gettysburg, then an Ivy for Chem Phd. I went to the same school as a transfer student and was a full time employee there when I applied for admission. I did not fit into many of those boxes people like to place Ivy students in. Our oldest dau was, therefore, a legacy applicant.</p>

<p>She was accepted. May I also add that she graduated second in her h.s. class at one of the strongest h.s. in NJ, and got 1590 on her SAT the only time she took it (we would not let her retake it)? Won all kinds of scholarships including a Natl Merit, poetry prizes, etc etc? So we have never thought that it was her legacy status that got her admitted.</p>

<p>One of her classmates was the son of a certain British lead guitarist from a rather well known 60s band. He distinguished himself during his tenure at the place by throwing parties. He was not a legacy admit.</p>

<p>I suppose we could guess why they admitted him, but I do wish that instead of wasting breath carrying on about the children of alumni who <em>have</em> worked hard for their grades, honors, and eventual acceptances at whatever colleges to which they apply, people should maybe turn their ire on the places “taken” by celebrities and their offspring.</p>

<p>You would be surprised. My friend’s mom went to harvard, and all her kids are high school drop outs – except for my friend who is a mediocre student at best. I know it sounds silly but being privilages can sometimes make a student want to work less hard.</p>

<p>I’m with UT84321!</p>

<p>A hook definitely helps!</p>