<p>My son is a strong but not amazing student, but he's always been the type of student teachers appreciate in their classrooms: extremely engaged, focused, present, respectful of classmates and teachers, etc. I know interviews matter little, but do teacher recommendations have an impact? I know they won't get him into a college he's not qualified for, but could they sway an admissions committee on the fence? Thanks for your thoughts. </p>
<p>I think a good letter can make a big difference. Most teachers don’t know how to write really helpful letters though. I think my younger son, in particular, probably got letters that made a difference. His math teacher explained how good a math thinker he was even though his grades didn’t always show it. (He showed the letter to my son.) His history teacher asked for so much info from the students I have to think his letters must have been informative. He asked students to give him back a copy of one of their graded papers, write a paragraph about their favorite text book, and write a paragraph or two about where they were applying, why and what they thought they might major in. He got into some pretty reachy colleges that don’t normally take kids with his GPA.</p>
<p>DS’s high school college counselor (who used to be in admissions at several different uni’s in her career) said that teacher recommendations are pretty useless unless the teacher speaks in specifics about something a student has done or achieved in the class that sets them apart…being going above and beyond, or overcoming something. Just saying that the student is a great kid doesn’t do anything.</p>
<p>They matter a lot but they need to be insightful. A lot of students go to the teacher who will just blindly sing their praises and say they walk on water - “the best student I ever had”. But what does that mean? It is meaningless platitudes. What they want from the teachers, and what grades alone do not show, is the “real” student. The student that may have had some adversity, or shown something different in their class.</p>
<p>My D is a case in point. She could have gotten recs from teachers who would have written that she was the second coming. However, she got her recommendation from her APUSH teacher, a nationally known teacher that was notorious for not ever giving out A’s - a first for her. In addition, her first semester in his class, her grandmother lived with us while she was in hospice and she died in early December. Through that very trying time, my D pushed forward, went to class, dealt with the stress of not getting A’s for the first time in her school career and triumphed (though she did not get an A she did get a 5 on the AP test). When I told the teacher what was going on during a Parent Teacher conference, he had no clue as to what was going on because she never once came in and asked for an extension even after those nights when we were up all night caring for her sick grandma.</p>
<p>When she asked this teacher to write her rec, he was honored since he knew that he was the one teacher that had given her the lowest grade (relatively speaking) and the class she did not breeze through. I am sure all of this came through in his letter.</p>
<p>I’m worried about my 11th grade son. He will probably end up with a 94-95 average in a rigorous courseload, his SAT scores will be high, and he has very, very strong music ECs. And he has some unusual interests and will write good essays. But he goes to a very large public HS and he doesn’t really know any of the teachers (except the music teachers, who know him quite well). He is not, at this point, anything special academically - just a bright, hardworking kid. He is something special in music, but he is not going to be majoring in music. I’m not sure how to handle this.</p>
<p>Does he do community service work or have a job?
Both my kids had strong teacher reqs, ( although I only saw one), but they also had recommendations from their supervisor in their community service job.
The music teachers will be important, but especially if he isn’t majoring in music, academic teachers are important too.
Will he be taking classes from anyone for the 2nd or 3rd time between now and next fall?</p>
<p>NYMomof2, my son is also an extremely strong musician - his most important asset in terms of applications. He may or may not major in music, but he is not applying to conservatories but to liberal arts schools. We have found it helpful to contact the music professors at the schools prior to visit. He has sat in on a number of jazz ensembles, and impressed the professors who have said they would advocate for him during admissions. So if your son is interested in playing in college, even if he doesn’t major in music, that’s what I would advise. We’ll see how it pans out for my son.</p>
<p>It is more than the letter. There is a teacher’s and GC’s recommendation form (<a href=“http://www1.wne.edu/assets/10/CA_teacher_evaluation.pdf”>http://www1.wne.edu/assets/10/CA_teacher_evaluation.pdf</a>) where they check off what percentile your student is for various areas:</p>
<p>Academic achievement
Intellectual promise
Quality of writing
Creative, original thought
Productive class discussion
Respect accorded by faculty
Disciplined work habits
Maturity
Motivation
Leadership
Integrity
Reaction to setbacks
Concern for others
Self-confidence
Initiative, independence
Overall</p>
<p>It would be hard for me to believe that teacher’s LOR wouldn’t be important. One thing adcoms look for is how engaging a student is going to be in the classroom. Why admit someone who doesn’t have love of learning, motivation, productive in class discussion or intellectual promise?</p>
<p>cbdnyc, Thank you for the information! My son will not be majoring in music, but having good opportunities to play in band/jazz band and to continue piano study are a very high priority. Will the music professors be interested in meeting with a prospective student who definitely won’t be majoring in music? My son will be applying to liberal arts colleges, too. </p>
<p>emeraldkity, He does some community service with an organization but it’s sporadic. He wanted to get a job last summer but was only 15. He has been in a pit band and he’s played in parades, and the usual dog-walking, etc. He doesn’t have a lot of free time during the school year. He’s in the band and jazz band at school (minimum 8 hours rehearsal/week) and another band outside of school (1.5 hours/week), and he does some performing on the piano. He did 6 performances of a major long piano piece last month and will be doing another one this month. He will be performing another, short, piece for a benefit this month and he also auditioned for a concert. He has two band performances at school this month. </p>
<p>emeraldkity, he had the same English teacher in 9th and 10th grades, a really exceptional teacher. But English is not an area of strength, and his grades are not great. He easily gets top grade in science (98 in honors Chem last year, 760 or 780 on the SAT 2 (I’ve forgotten exactly what he got), 99 average so far in AP Physics) but he’s not really interested in science at this point and I don’t know think the teachers would have anything special to say about him. History is his major interest but he is not doing all that well in AP History this year, although he spends a lot of time on it. </p>
<p>He has always had areas of intense interest that he learns a lot about, but they’ve been outside of school. Right now he is very interested in ethics (effective altruism, animal rights, etc.) and he is editing some very weighty papers for someone who has a website. The papers were translated from German, and they are not in good shape. He’s improving them. He’s asked me for help with some passages, and the ideas are very complex and difficult. But I don’t know how to turn this interest into an EC for college.</p>
<p>^It might not be an EC, but there might be something there for an essay.</p>
<p>Don’t discount the history teacher if his teacher likes him. My younger son was a B student in math, but he really liked this math teacher and the math teacher liked him.</p>
<p>I am sure he will want to write one of his essays on this topic, and it will be an interesting one. I don’t know whether the history teacher likes him or not. And I don’t know how good his contributions to discussions are.</p>
<p>Even if his grades weren’t great, if the teacher has a good relationship with him, and can speak to his work ethic etc, that could be a possibility for a recommendation.
Lots of things go into grades, but he may have qualities that don’t come into the ranking.
You might be surprised what a teacher has to say.</p>
<p>They do count some for undergrad, but they hold a lot more weight for PhD admissions.</p>
<p>We asked our GC who our kid should ask for recommendations (listed a few teachers she was thinking about asking). good GC knows which teachers write “good” recommendations and which ones aren’t the best, and may help advise you. Also, our experience has been that teachers from other cultures may be too blunt/honest for what you want in a college recommendation letter – they think they should give balanced viewpoint, and may say more negative things about your kid than you would want (true though they may be!).</p>
<p>I think that students blindly like to go to the teacher whose class they got the highest grade in vs, the teacher who can write them the best recommendation (often this person is not one in the same). </p>
<p>A good recommendation letter will show, simply not tell and give examples of students work and growth. I have read many letters from my peers that have made my head spin to the point of why did the teacher even bother to agree to writing a letter. I have also read some teacher letter that made me say wow (and yes, I steer kids to the good letter writers). </p>
<p>One of the best letters that I read one year was written by a teacher for a kid who actually failed the class (kid got a little in to the weeds and couldn’t get himself out and had some extenuating circumstances what was corroborated in the school report). The teacher graciously explained that the class room grade was not representative of the work that he was able to do; and spoke about the kids intellectual curiosity, insight and written work.</p>
<p>@NYMomof2, don’t worry. I attended a “case studies” program in which admissions officers from colleges of all sizes, locations, and style offered a workshop to show us how admissions works and let us play admissions officer. We were provided with a packet of 3 or 4 fictional candidates files. It included the application and essay, transcripts, school profile, and LORs. Then groups of 20 were assigned to 2 admissions officers who trained us in how to go through the file quickly and find the information we needed. After that we were divided into even smaller groups and each group presented one of the candidates to the group of 20 and made a recommendation admit, deny, waitlist. </p>
<p>If what they presented was even remotely close to how it really works, the LORs do not have to be literary masterpieces nor do they have to present compelling anecdotes. When the admissions folk deal with large public schools, they don’t expect that. Usually, they receive a form that lists all the qualities that oldfort provided above in post 7 and there are checks for categories along the lines of “best I’ve seen in my teaching career”, top 1%, top 5%, top 10% top 25% etc. The reviewing admissions officer looks at that part carefully. Really carefully. More carefully than they read the essays. They are trying to match the rest of the application to the LOR and to see how the applicant is perceived by his school. They will look at the narrative too of course and of course it helps to have a teacher who communicates clearly and loves the kid. But no, they are not going to toss the LOR or discount the LOR because it doesn’t provide compelling anecdotes. </p>
<p>After attending this program, my feeling was that the LORs are one of the most significant pieces of the application. </p>