<p>^ The way SS benefits are taxed is already a form of means-testing, although it doesn’t bring in a tremendous amount of money. I suppose it could be made worse.</p>
<p>Lifting the wage ceiling is a great idea. Let those evil 5%'ers pay for my retirement! :D</p>
<p>If they remove the FICA wage ceiling and means-test the benefits, then they should just be done with it and call it WELFARE</p>
<p>@GMTplus7 , fine with me. Welfare sounds dirty when you say it, but I agree with Wikipedia: “Welfare is the provision of a minimal level of well-being and social support for all citizens.”</p>
<p>Anyway, perhaps we should put away the popcorn and go back to a discussion of retirement and avoid discussion of entitlements. </p>
<p>I thought that the way to value Social Security was to consider what a life annuity (or a joint-and-survivor annuity) would cost, and compare that to the present value of the social security (not Medicare) payments made? Last time I put pencil to paper on that one, social security didn’t look so bad, and that wasn’t even considering that I’m pretty sure that the US government won’t be going out of business. It was also hard to find annuities with COLA adjustments, which make a huge difference.</p>
<p>We missed getting the Denver tax-free mini-bonds. They sold out in under an hour; we should have tried the electronic purchase. I hope some other entities do these. They were general obligation, zero coupon bonds, $500 purchase price, $20K maximum purchase, and could only be purchased by individuals who are Colorado residents, not able to be traded (no cusip) and not callable. Yield was 4.38% for the 2023 bonds, 4.89% for the 2028 bonds. </p>
<p>Arabrab, that is how I value SS.</p>
<p>A friend called me yesterday about those Denver bonds. He missed them </p>
<p>Those yields are great.</p>
<p>When people complain about the bad investment value of SS benefits, I bring up the first house we bought in the 80’s. Our 30 fixed mortgage payment for the house was about the same as max SS tax. The going price of the house is about the same as our prsent value of SS benefit. In this one sample, one could say SS did as well as real estate as an investment.</p>
<p>Discussions at a lull here… so I will ask my polling question. For early retiree couples w/o retirement medical coverage, how much do you pay (or plan to pay) annually for pre-65 health insurance? </p>
<p>1) Colorado_mom - $20K (this is an initial wild guess, for future planning)
2)
3) </p>
<p>if you want to play along, copy/paste and add to list 
</p>
<p>1) Colorado_mom - $20K (this is an initial wild guess, for future planning)
2) dstark $20k with increases of 7.5 to 10 percent a year for 6 years. </p>
<p>Drats… I was hoping my guess was high. </p>
<p>1) Colorado_mom - $20K (this is an initial wild guess, for future planning)
2) dstark $20k with increases of 7.5 to 10 percent a year for 6 years.
3) ??? </p>
<p>That is the all-in health care costs…including dental…</p>
<p>1) Colorado_mom - $20K (this is an initial wild guess, for future planning)
2) dstark $20k with increases of 7.5 to 10 percent a year for 6 years.
3)busdriver11: 11-12K, good plan, but dental is extra</p>
<p>W\O retirement coverage. ;)</p>
<p>I’m confused, why would you need “retirement coverage” on Medicare…unless you are talking about dental coverage?</p>
<p>Retiring before age 65…</p>
<p>I used to understand this stuff, I was always the one in my family doing the research and finding the tax benefits. Too much today. </p>
<p>We are 4 months into (semi) retirement. Things are going well money-wise, and we are finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel for the remodel of another vacation rental that we bought ( yay! a few weeks ago we were neck-deep in contractor screw-ups…wrong granite, one cabinet wrong, wrong sink, two dented appliances delivered!, a handyman who went AWOL, and a HOA that can’t seem to make the smallest decisions. </p>
<p>As to the comment of having spent every last dollar at the time of death, that seems unwise if you have a surviving spouse! That said, we WANT to leave our children some wealth. I know it is not an obligation, but my grandparents left my parents some money, my parents left us siblings some money, and I intend to do the same. </p>
<p>I’ve looked over at a bunch of ACA plans in different places, the worst case cost (maximum OOP + premium expense) for a couple in their 50’s ranges roughly from $18K up to $30K or so. Best case (you pay for insurance but use no health care during the year) ranges roughly from $6K to $18K.</p>
<p>With the low cost ones, you are basically paying for the worst case before the insurance pays anything and they seem to be HMO’s (I am not a fan). For the high cost ones it would take a lot of health care consumption to reach the OOP max (some of them have no co-insurance even for hospital stays), but the premiums are as much as the (premiums+OOP Max) cost of the low price plans… it’s not clear why anyone would take the expensive plans, unless they provide a better network. Or your subsidy is so large it makes it worthwhile.</p>
<p>We wouldn’t be getting a subsidy.</p>
<p>It’s an interesting set of tradeoffs.</p>
<p>Re OOP max: although we are healthier than our medication cost would indicate (e.g., my wife is training for her 23rd marathon now), we use some biological drugs that you’ve seen on TV. The retail un-discounted cost to our family is around $450 per day. In case you wonder why we are big fans of the ACA pre-existing condition clause, there’s your answer :-)</p>
<p>I guess that marks me down for $30k per year spend (premiums and OOP)</p>
<p>I still insist on $50 mlns …</p>
<p>For those younger than 65 and need to buy health insurance, have anybody here gives any thought to retire temporarily oversea and come back to USA after 65. I think there is a possibility for me to do that, not because of health insurance, but to satisfy my wander lust. I know my sister had a roommate that retired in Spain after receiving a modest inheritance from her father. People at my work have mentioned Costa Rica, Guatemala, etc… and other lower cost places.</p>