My DD is helping her H get out of his school debt - so the debt often needs to get paid off first. Better to get school and car debt out of the way before having kids too. The student loan they will have paid off shortly has 7.5% interest.
Some of Dave Ramsey debt snowball makes sense on having young people motivated to be on ‘beans and rice, rice and beans’ and have the payoff successes on their debts. DD as a nurse has gotten a nice Covid bonus and that paid off the last of one of his student loans.
Sometimes the saying goes “you can tell a _____ something, but you can’t tell them much” – fill in the blank being Millennium or other group that doesn’t understand money - earn, save - investments and other savings, spend - and using money well so that one can live their whole life w/o scraping the bottom of the barrel living paycheck to paycheck or LT dependency on living in mom and dad’s basement.
Many young people want to live life now - get a nice car, have a nice apt, eat at nice places. One nurse that shortly worked at DD’s hospital was driving a leased Red luxury vehicle - she also parked it in a no parking area and took up 2 spots - she got a $250 parking violation ticket AND someone was upset enough with where she parked to key the car. She absolutely has no financial sense with a car lease #1…
My son was born with a frugal gene. When he was looking for an apartment after college he had a spreadsheet that set out in the various costs involved and included a column for distance to the nearest Aldi. Main reason he wanted to go back to the office a month or so ago was to get access to the subsidized cafeterias.
In addition to retirment savings and making a car payment to himself to pay for a new car at some point down the road, his expenses are $1000/month less than his net income. He had a emergency fund when he graduated. Salary increases go to savings. As long as he doesn’t marry a sprendthrift (which no way can I see him doing), he should be fine.
The blank describes lots of people, not just any particular generation.
Of course, some young people who develop spendy habits now may, a generation from now, be the parents complaining about how they earn too much income to get any college financial aid anywhere, but can barely afford 10% of the cost to send their kids to college…
This place tends to exaggerate certain aspects of college. If you were tototally unfamiliar with how college works in the US and you started reading threads here, you may think that huge percentage of kids/families are focused on whatever initialed group of schools you prefer when reality is very different. No doubt there are people here who complain about not being able to afford college with incomes which indicate that at least may not be the case. But in reality vast majority of the people I know in that category just move on and don’t complain. Stepping away from this place into reality can provide a lot of perspective.
Interesting. ShawSon called me today to ask about an investment. Two years ago, he called me as a friend and classmate from the prestigious business school that ShawSon attended was having trouble attracting investment into his startup that was actually doing OK, but if he didn’t get investment, he needed a loan until he got a job. ShawSon asked me if he could lend $5K to his friend. He said given his background – bright, exceedingly articulate African American kid with the best social skills ShawSon had seen – combined with attending a top Ivy and then a prestigious business school, he would never have long-term financial issues. The loan was up to two years at 5% interest and I suggested a big kicker if he didn’t repay at the end of two years. Two years are up, his friend is ready to repay.
Although the friend had a job at a startup and was offered one at Google, he decided to give talks about managing money and has been doing that and managing money and apparently doing very well. ShawSon wanted to know if it was OK to leave the now $6K for his friend to manage. I said, look, given that your job entails a lot of risk (tech entrepreneur), your investments should generally be safe. But this guy is doing stuff with options, and so, he could do well in a down market when your other advisors won’t. You just have to be prepared to lose it all. But, you need to figure out how he is managing the money. Is he connected with a brokerage firm now? Who has custody over the money? What agreements will be in place?
Back to your thoughts about kids’ saving (i.e., @socaldad2002, @BKSquared. @saillakeerie), ShawSon is saving money on his startup salary (not so low – there does appear to be a norm of what you give founders after a seed round and then what do you bump it up to after a Series A or Series B, etc.). So, no shortage of money. He and ShawD have to find a new apartment, but in SF, rents appear to have gone down as much as 30%. And, he’s spending less as a result of COVID (restaurant meals, travel, GF now out of the picture). So, he will have more savings every month. So taking a risk on $6K is probably not a problem if it is properly documented. He isn’t frugal like @saillakeree’s son. He just doesn’t own or want things. He took some of my old suits and sport coats for formal wear rather than buying his own but really wears his company’s swag and t-shirts. He can move with just a few boxes. He doesn’t really pay a lot of attention to price when he shops and certainly doesn’t sweat significant price comparison (unlike ShawD). But, it is hard to spend a lot of money if you don’t buy anything other than food.
Shawbridge, lots change when they marry. My DIL is too frugal when it comes to furniture for their new apartment, but they use take out food and prepared meals a lot. My son seems content.
… or at least have risks that are not or less correlated to the risk of the job, right?
Not having a lot of (expensive) wants is one way to keep spending down. And a wardrobe of company swag is rather low cost. But is he exactly the same dimensions as you so that he can wear your suits?
My son works for a tech company. His first day of work he wanted to wear t-shirt and shorts. I suggested that for his first day he should wear khaki pants and a button shirt. He did that but brought a tshirt and shorts in case they “made” him change. I told him they would never do that. Half the people who started the same day as he did were dressed like he was and the other half were in tshirts and shorts. Since then he has been tshirt and shorts every day (jeans and sweatshirt in the winter). When customers are onsite which is once or twice a year, its more the traditional business casual he wore his first day. And when we toured the place last summer I noticed they had signs around everywhere that provided guidance on what was appropriate dress for customer days. Something like high school when what was appropriate and inappropriate for male and female employee. Was funny to see.
Thousands of employees on a 10+ building campus. Not everyone dresses the same. He knew what he could wear on a daily basis but it was more of a question of what he should wear on the first day. Not necessarily the same thing. For multiple reasons.
From what I know of the company, I expect as part of prepartions (that take several weeks) for customer arrivals (in lines of buses) the signs are all removed and thus no customer ever seems one. In addition the areas with the signs aren’t the ones customers will see when they are there.
But I expect that its customer expecations (either stated or implied) that has everyone dressed up a little more when customers are on campus. GIven the very large customer base, I doubt they all have the same view of what should be worn when they are on campus though. If you are ok with tshirts, tough to imagine you would have a problem with a button shirt. But if you expect button shirts, you may have a problem with tshirts.
So how would they feel if they saw a sign? I would guess they would appreciate the respect for them and their business cultures. Just like they no doubt would appreciate reminders before employees leave for customer locations (where tshirts are from what I understand never the expectation). From what I have heard of the wining and dining and tech show put on for customers, I just can’t see any of them giving 2 hoots about any signs.
On suits, although he is taller than I was, the suits that I wore before I gained some weight fit him very well. Not clear how or why. Also, I had some shirts handmade for me in Hong Kong. They also fit him perfectly. He’s lucky as he has gotten some very expensive suits and he likes the suit / no tie look. But, even before COVID, he was in the Silicon Valley dressing mode. Mostly company swag and some t-shirts and tennis shirts. His big expense was shoes from Costco.
On expenses, we just bought him a Waterpik/electric toothbrush from Costco. When we ask him what he wants for his birthday, he says nothing. So, when he expresses a desire for something, we are happy to get it in lieu of a birthday present. He will have to pay for the premium membership for online dating when he decides to head bank into the fray.
@saillakeerie, I helped someone start a quant hedge fund. I would warn investors who wanted to come visit that the folks who worked there thought that it was a dress-up day if their t-shirt didn’t have holes. Pre-COVID, when my son and his co-founder ran board meetings (with some of their VCs), I think they wore company swag button-down shirts. ShawSon partner had them made by Lululemon, I think… They also wear them for magazine interviews or events (speaking at a business school, etc.).
@ucbalumnus, that was a bit of a joke – I just wanted visitors to be prepared for the dress code (jeans and t-shirts). ShawSon’s partner went upscale on swag (but they also have golf shirts and tee shirts and backpacks and who knows what – not totally sure what brand he chose). His idea was that a) employees and other recipients would wear it because it was high quality; b) external facing folks could wear it to business meetings. ShawSon would never have spent that but in hindsight agrees that the upscale swag worked well.
@shawbridge I grew up wearing a tie. A few years ago I did a rough calculation and between school and various jobs, I had spent more than 1/2 the days of my life wearing a tie (and vast majority of those days in a suit). Something like 41 of the not yet 55 years of my life have involved wearing a tie at least 180 days. Just totally used to it; never gave a thought to it. Went business casual last fall (takes more effort/thought than suits/ties).
But my dad was born in a tie. Just like the old pics of sporting events you see with men in ties and hats, that was my dad. At our youth sporting events. He has moved way from that now in his late 80s though.
My son is another generation removed from a tie. Not sure he knows how to tie one (I think I learned in the 3rd grade). He will save a lot of money on work clothes. He doesn’t have any beyond his non-work clothes.
He has no use for a suit beyond the typical “gotta have as a guy” one suit. He could probably take one of mine now but he is 2-3" shorter. And he hit his current weight about 10-15 years before I hit it. Apparently working for a tech company all day with multiple subsidized eateries isn’t good for a waistline. LOL
I recently saw the long retired dean of local college’s business school at a CVS waiting on his prescriptions - and he had on a dress shirt, suit and tie. I guess he just feels like he needs to be dressed for success well into retirement. Maybe habit. I worked Adjunct Professor in the 1980’s.
SIL/DD did think about refinancing, but they are paying off pretty aggressively; and his student loans had the no interest Covid period that refinancing would not have given him.
The silver lining with some of SIL’s deficiencies is that DD and he have beautiful smart and happy children. Grandchildren are GRAND.
On the other hand, I have seen some people who “dressed up” in ways that they apparently rarely do normally, with the result defeating the purpose (“dressier” clothes that don’t fit well, etc.).
I worked for a (at the time) Big 8 accounting firm in the mid-late 80s and that John T Malloy book, Dress for Success was my bible for what to wear for work clothing. Women wore skirted suits, oxford shirts, “floppy” silk bow ties, hose and heels every day. If you wore a dress, you had a blazer over it.
I interned with a Big 8 firm and by the time I started fulltime it was the Big 6, Work clothes were simple for men: suit and tie. They even wanted you to have an old suit for inventory observations. I made it easier by always wearing white shirts. I had a parttime job at IBM in college and at the time it was white shirts only there. I build a stock of white shirts which just continued after college. Only had to worry if tie looked good with the suit not the shirt as well, stripes with solids, etc. Simpler the better for me.
Seems like it could be more of an issue if you are asking daily tshirt/short wearers to wear a suit for a week. I know some people in California who claim they don’t own long pants. This company is located where there are real winters. Long pants are a must have for a lot longer than 1 week while customers are around. And they are all on various customer teams and visit customer locations (at least pre-Covid) 1-2x a year. Customers don’t allow shorts and tshirts. So you need to have at least one decent pair of long pants and a few button shirts even without the customer visit. This year the customer event was canceled so the tshirt and shorts wearers can rejoice (though long term they should understand that the customer visit event drives a long of business for the company).
They probably also have the benefit of numbers. If I have 10 employees in a small office and customers are visiting, I may have concerns if some people only have “dressier” clothes that don’t fit well, etc. But if I have thousands of people and multiple buildings, I can hide even 1000 employees
@saillakeerie and @SOSConcern, I was a business school prof at the very beginning of my career and needed to wear either sports coat or suits and ties. I had no suits before that. Really hated ties. Then went to work on Wall Street for a while. Expensive suits and ties needed. Later set up a high-end consulting firm and I concluded that I needed to dress in a manner consistent with my clients’ expectations of me. Otherwise, instead of listening to me, they would be thinking, “Why is this guy we’re paying a lot of money to dressed like a shlub?” What clients need to see has changed over time and differs by region. Suits and ties all have to look expensive. Asia: dark suits with ties (but haven’t been there in a while). London: suits with no tie. Europe can be suit with no tie or deconstructed jackets. Silicon Valley: Non-denim jeans or Khakhis and a shirt. Polarfleece vest good (Patagonia the best brand for unknown reasons; North Face OK). NY – varies a lot depending upon what kind of firm and what level. Most of US – business casual (sometimes blazer; often not and usually button-down or polo shirts).
I don’t love wearing fancy clothes. Very happy to work in bus casual environment. Even though I have an office, I work at home. Love visiting folks in Silicon Valley. I have Zoom calls with clients today in Texas, UK, Massachusetts. Wearing cargo shorts and a tennis shirt.
@SOSConcern, I think someone suggested Sofi to refinance. Substantial interest rate reduction likely. Would they look at that?