How much does being a URM help, really?

<p>When I used the term academia, I was referring more to those who are enrolled as opposed to the actual professors and TA's. Maybe I should have used a better term. In Sowell's world views in describing resentment of minorities' perceived or real encroachment of coveted positions, he rarely describes the phenomena based on political affiliation. I'm sure that can factor into it but is more a racial and cultural issue than a political one. While many minorities have suffered discrimination in this country, it's not comparable to the experiences of the african american. Liberalism to an extent has crippled progress of AA's to a degree, arguably creating a mindset of "co dependancy" if you will, but the racism that has hindered african american progress crosses the political spectrum. </p>

<p>I'm glad that there is affirmative action, and if utilized properly, and that is the key, is a powerful tool in creating opportunities for those groups most debilitated by a legacy of racism, sexism and discrimination. To believe that the disparities created between the haves and have come from just good ol' fashioned hard work, ignores the true legacy of discrimination in this country. I'd be interested in hearing solutions as opposed to gripes in remedying the educational, economical, social and political disparities between urm's and everyone else since affirmative action is so distasteful to some.</p>

<p>Quote:Remember, the best investment banker was not necessarily the most intelligent student. The best doctor is not necessarily the most intellectual person. </p>

<p>This quote came from a counselor with 30 years of experience in advising high school kids in another thread on this forum totally unrelated. <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=352513%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=352513&lt;/a> post #6.</p>

<p>Seems like adcoms realize this more than we do, hence why subjectivity HAS to factor in admission policy. Listen to his wisdom, and maybe we can squash some of the rhetoric about "unqualified" or "less qualified" urm graduates.</p>

<p>ok bottom line: if you graduate from Harvard, you're going to get a good job, especially if you are a urm. </p>

<p>When you go out to anywhere but graduate school, all you do need is your degree and you're set. No matter where they are graduating, if they graduate they were successful in college. </p>

<p>If you aren't going on to graduate school then you don't need to keep that "only the top 50% of students are the strong ones" mentality. Almost anybody who goes to Harvard is perceived as stronger than anybody who doesn't go to Harvard. And to the outside world, number 15 in the class and number 1500 in the class are exactly the same; IT'S NOT HIGH SCHOOL. </p>

<p>Fabrizio, what i'm saying is it really isn't up to non-african americans to determine whether black people are developing an inferiority complex and can't handle AA. That's just racist, they aren't children. </p>

<p>The less number of black honors graduates could simply be the lack of value that black society currently places on being a black college honor graduate, and frankly the world doesn't put much value on it either. If you get into A top university you don't need to graduate with honors to be successful.</p>

<p>OF COURSE the urms admitted to universities through AA are going to be in the bottom 50% for the most part, they haven't been going to "college-in-high school" for the past 4 years. Does that mean they aren't qualified? No, there's always going to be a bottom 50% of the less strong students, but they're still qualified. Once you're qualified to attend a university, whatever else goes into the selection is entirely up to the university. </p>

<p>Urms benefit from AA when utilized properly, as in the top private universities like Harvard, Stanford, ect. </p>

<p>Asian society is not hurt by AA. When these top Asians students go to universities, they'll graduate with honors like you said fabrizio, and it'll be "just as good".</p>

<p>Tyler,</p>

<p>
[quote]

The less number of black honors graduates [sic] could simply be the lack of value that black society currently places on being a black college honor graduate, and frankly the world doesn't put much value on it either.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It seems like you unconsciously enjoy insulting the achievements of students, especially Black students. You routinely understate the number of Black students enrolled in the UC system. Even worse, you frequently disparage the hard-earned efforts of students who do well in their coursework. Who knows, maybe your ability to perform well at the college level is independent of your analytical, grammar, and reading abilities.</p>

<p>You say that "...the urms admitted to universities through AA are going to be in the bottom 50%...they haven't been going to 'college-in-high school' for the past 4 years." An admissions officer from the Ivy Leagues has stated that most of the Blacks who attend the Ivy Leagues are wealthy. That is, they are the very ones who can afford to attend "college-in-high-school" high schools and enlist private tutoring and counseling.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You say that "...the urms admitted to universities through AA are going to be in the bottom 50%...they haven't been going to 'college-in-high school' for the past 4 years."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>the bottom 50% of the class is going to include quite a few non URMs also.</p>

<p>what is your point fabrizio. I'm not insulting the achievements of any students, it is you who is saying that the blacks admitted don't deserve to attend those schools. </p>

<p>And if they are wealthy they still don't have parents who know how to steer them to do all of these pre-college things or think they are important enough to actually spend money on them. </p>

<p>And you still seem to read around the bottom line. you can't really argue with it.</p>

<p>Quote:An admissions officer from the Ivy Leagues has stated that most of the Blacks who attend the Ivy Leagues are wealthy.</p>

<p>Not to mention that at the HYP, 30-40% of "black" enrollees are of Carribean or West African decent. Just as with the first and second generation Asians coming to this country. Not exactly coming from the bottom of the socio-economic barrel.</p>

<p>Quote:And if they are wealthy they still don't have parents who know how to steer them to do all of these pre-college things or think they are important enough to actually spend money on them.</p>

<p>It's a little more complex than that tyler. May I suggest googling the study by John Ogbu, "Rich, Black and Flunking."</p>

<p>"One of the main reasons to gain a college degree is because in this society it opens more doors of opportunity. Some would argue this is even more so at the elite school level. Just in every discipline there are varying degrees of demonstrated competence. Whether a doctor, lawyer, pilot, civil servant, politician, etc, gpa's and test scores don't neccessarily predict an individuals level of success after graduating or certification. Kinda reminds me of the cliche', "what do they call the guy at the bottom of the medical school graduating class?" Doctor. The same would be said of many college graduates. Let's not trivialize graduating from college, of which only about 58% of people who attend do, or especially of those that graduate from the most selective schools, in which the overwhelming majority do.(urm's included)"</p>

<p>It's interesting that you use this analogy since I'm applying to medical school this summer. Some argue that simply passing the USMLE's (agian, not hard to do) and graduating from medical school is enough to establish one as a good doctor. This article says otherwise. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two US allopathic med schools with the lowest MCAT's produce the largest proportion of incompetent doctors. You can say what you want about the fallibility of relying on GPA/standardized test scores but they are the best metric we have of academic achievement/aptitude. </p>

<p>"Study of punished doctors notes 4 schools</p>

<p><a href="http://www.sunspot.net/news/health/b...alth-headlines%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.sunspot.net/news/health/b...alth-headlines&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>By Jack Dolan and Andrew Julien
Special To The Sun
Originally published June 29, 2003</p>

<p>A handful of medical schools in the United States and abroad graduate troubled doctors at about 10 times the rate of the best schools, an eight-month Hartford Courant investigation found.
Four medical schools - the Autonomous University of Guadalajara in Mexico, Howard University in Washington, Manila Central University in the Philippines and Meharry Medical College in Nashville, Tenn. - ranked at the bottom in analyses of three databases containing records of disciplinary actions against thousands of physicians across the United States.</p>

<p>Other medical schools also fared poorly in The Courant's review, but only Guadalajara, Howard, Manila Central and Meharry appeared in the bottom 5 percent of about 200 schools ranked by rates of disciplinary actions against graduates in each analysis. Together, these large, well-established schools have produced more than 600 doctors cited by licensing boards for negligence, incompetence, sexual assault, drug abuse or fraud.</p>

<p>History of concern</p>

<p>Within the medical profession, some of these schools have long been watched with concern. Howard and Meharry ranked at the bottom of a National Science Foundation-funded survey of U.S. medical school quality in 1977, and questions have been raised about Guadalajara for years.</p>

<p>Although it is difficult to draw conclusions about individual doctors based on where they went to school, the Connecticut newspaper's findings point to a link between medical schools that have raised concerns in various settings and troubling behavior by some of their graduates.</p>

<p>'Incredible information'</p>

<p>"This is incredible information," said Dr. Rebecca Patchin, chairwoman of the American Medical Association's council on medical education. "This could shake up the whole community and force people to take another look at the licensing criteria."</p>

<p>The reasons for the poor showing of these schools are unclear, but most have one thing in common: a practice of admitting students with lower grades or scores on standardized tests who might have trouble being accepted in many other places.</p>

<p>At least one school, Guadalajara, has accepted would-be doctors who never finished college.</p>

<p>"There is no excuse for students being allowed into medical school if they aren't adequately prepared," said Dr. Sidney Wolfe, director of health research for Public Citizen, a consumer group based in Washington.</p>

<p>"Maybe this means that it's worth requiring that anyone practicing medicine in this country had adequate preparation before medical school," Wolfe said.</p>

<p>Study criticized</p>

<p>The findings of The Courant drew a sharp response from the head of the trade group representing U.S. medical schools, who said it was impossible to pin the performance of physicians on the schools they graduated from because too many other variables determine success or failure.</p>

<p>"I think it's kind of an irrational approach to analyzing a very complex set of issues," said Dr. Jordan Cohen, president of the American Association of Medical Colleges, who characterized the effort as "simplistic" and "foolish."</p>

<p>"I don't think there are any bad medical schools" in the United States, Cohen said. "That's a null set."</p>

<p>The Courant analyzed national and state databases containing the type of disciplinary information consumers can get through "physician profile" Web sites run by state licensing boards.</p>

<p>The broadest database, compiled by Public Citizen, contained information on more than 19,000 physicians disciplined between 1990 and 1999 by state licensing boards, the federal Medicare and Medicaid programs, the Food and Drug Administration, and the Drug Enforcement Administration.</p>

<p>The Courant also obtained "physician profile" databases from two large-population, geographically distinct states, California and Ohio, which together contain the records for about 240,000 doctors who have held licenses over the past 50 years. The California database also contains information on some malpractice payments made by physicians.</p>

<p>Study's methodology</p>

<p>The schools represented were then ranked according to rates of disciplined graduates. After eliminating small schools with statistically insignificant numbers of graduates, only Guadalajara, Howard, Manila and Meharry consistently stood out with the highest rates of disciplined doctors in all three databases.</p>

<p>In California, approximately one of every 10 graduates from each of the schools has faced disciplinary action. For most schools, fewer than half that many graduates have been disciplined.</p>

<p>Admission standards</p>

<p>The schools differ in many ways, but the clearest common denominator is their flexible admission standards.</p>

<p>The two U.S. schools, Howard and Meharry, have played a critical role in the history of American medical education, training generations of black physicians when the doors to most schools were largely open only to whites. Doctors trained at these schools have gone on to provide care for many who were being turned away by all-white hospitals, or by physicians who refused to treat minorities.</p>

<p>They are also among a handful of historically black institutions that attract students who often come from underprivileged backgrounds and may score lower on standardized tests.</p>

<p>"Many, although not all, of our students come from disadvantaged backgrounds and therefore have not had the same educational advantages as other students in their formative years," Meharry spokeswoman Jill Scoggins said in a statement.</p>

<p>Howard and Meharry refused the newspaper's requests to meet with school officials. Instead, The Courant provided the schools with a written summary of the analysis and a list of questions.</p>

<p>Howard officials declined to comment. Officials at Manila Central did not respond to questions about the newspaper's findings.</p>

<p>Opportunity in Mexico</p>

<p>The Autonomous University of Guadalajara also has more flexible admissions standards, but for a different reason. The school draws U.S. citizens south of the border by catering to college students who do not have the grades, or the Medical College Admission Test scores, to get into a medical school in the United States.</p>

<p>"We don't frown on someone with a 'B' average," said Peter Himonidis, a Guadalajara dean. "We provide an opportunity for people who are determined to become doctors but are denied that opportunity at home."</p>

<p>While the majority of Guadalajara's graduates go on to practice without tarnished records, others have dismayed courts and regulators across the country with their lack of preparation for the safe practice of medicine.</p>

<p>Insufficient training</p>

<p>Dr. Jose Nabut of Florida, a graduate of Guadalajara, seriously injured at least five patients using a surgical technique that plaintiffs' lawyers said he learned by practicing on a pig at a weekend seminar after graduation. One of those patients, Glenn O'Loughlin, required eight corrective surgeries after Nabut mistakenly stapled shut his bile duct during what should have been a routine gallbladder removal.</p>

<p>O'Loughlin said he was stunned to discover, much later, that Nabut had been accepted at Guadalajara without earning a college degree.</p>

<p>"If I had known any of that, I never would have gone to him," O'Loughlin said. "But when your insurance company refers you to a doctor, you just trust that they know what they're doing."</p>

<p>Jack Dolan and Andrew Julien are reporters for The Hartford Courant, a Tribune Publishing newspaper."</p>

<p>"Raising hand here as a Cornell grad who finished with a 3.92 gpa. But you probably wasn't talking about me when you made ths sweeping generalization."</p>

<p>I did not realize you were a Cornell alumnus, sybbie. Congratulations on graduating with such a GPA. I am a Cornell alumnus as well although I have not held that status for nearly as long as you.</p>

<p>No, I was not talking about you when I made that generalization. I was simply looking at URM vs. ORM graduation rates. Obviously, individuals can deviate from the norm.</p>

<p>Norcal guy, that was an interesting piece, no doubt. Unfortunate that the two US schools were HBCU's. But 2 schools out of ? med schools. I wonder if there is a study correlating the disciplinary history and GPA/MCAT of physicians. Just for kicks I may try to find that study you posted. The greater point that I was making is we all know, work with and for people who are extremely bright but lack common sense. And those who don't test well but are considered very resourceful and competent. The ideal scenario is to have both, great intellect and great interpersonal/"commonsense" ability. Intangible personal qualities that effect desired outcomes is the factor that is hard to measure sometimes.</p>

<p>norcalguy-</p>

<p>The NORM? Aren't you a presumptive little boy.</p>

<p>Tyler,</p>

<p>You say that you are "not insulting the achievements of any students..."</p>

<p>Yet, you previously wrote (#145) that "...frankly the world doesn't put much value on it either," where it refers to graduating with honors at a research university that doesn't have loose grading policies.</p>

<p>I view that as dismissing the hard-work those students do every night to earn their distinction. Of course, to you, you're not insulting anyone.</p>

<p>
[quote]

And you still seem to read around the bottom line. you can't really argue with it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'll assume that the "bottom line" is what you stated in #145 about guaranteed success for Harvard graduates, especially "URM" ones.</p>

<p>Well, success is seldom guaranteed. If you have inept self-marketing skills, you're likely to bomb a few interviews, Harvard degree or not.</p>

<p>But, throughout your posts, I thank you for being consistent. Being a "URM" makes one susceptible to racism and discrimination outside of the evaluation room, but within it, such a status is advantageous.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It's a little more complex than that tyler. May I suggest googling the study by John Ogbu, "Rich, Black and Flunking."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is what I found:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/916557/posts%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/916557/posts&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I am not sure I am more disturbed by Ogbu's conclusions or the parents' reactions to them, which, btw, are not unlike what I have been seeing on CC.</p>

<p>Canuckguy,</p>

<p>Your assessment is a bit unfair.</p>

<p>Although there is a continuum of conservatism represented at Free Republic, by and large, it is loaded with extreme-right opinions. If a user registers and expresses support for racial preferences / "diversity" in his first post the way many parents here do, he'd probably get trolled to no end.</p>

<p>I see quite a few racist posts at the Free Republic link, but I also see a few other posts that aren't racist but would get pegged as racist by socialists.</p>

<p>Fabrizio,</p>

<p>Sorry for not doing a better job of explaining myself. The environment in America seems a lot more politically and racially charged than what this Canadian is used to.</p>

<p>I was simply looking for the article "Rich, black, and flunking" and the first site with it on google was Free Republic. A while back, I made the same "mistake" of linking to a John McWorter article from a conservative site and was criticized for it. Simply because certain groups use these articles to advance their agendas do not make these articles bad, imho. In fact, madville, who alerted me to the former is probably more "liberal" than I am.;)</p>

<p>My problem with Ogbu's parents is the same problem I have with most folks in general, and that includes many posters here on CC. Instead of looking at the evidence available and come up with a theory that can account for them, they start with a set of precepts and try to find evidence to fit them. The result is inconsistent, illogical and cumbersome arguments that are hardly convincing. Where is simple elegance, the essence of a good theory?</p>

<p>In short, I am not disturbed by their position on race or politics, but by the emotional and often inconsistent positions that they hold.</p>

<p>Quote:In short, I am not disturbed by their position on race or politics, but by the emotional and often inconsistent positions that they hold.</p>

<p>Which is why discussions on race and politics are so hard. If nothing else, I appreciate the mature discussion of a very sensitive issue in this particular thread. In person, it may be very difficult to exchange the ideas that have been shared in this particular forum. For the overwhelming most part, the posters have articulated their points of view without the vitriol that is commonly associated with discussions on race. It's not so much that I think that I will persuade those that are entrenched in their positions on affirmative action, (you know who you are, lol) but for those who are still undecided or have based their opinions on emotion or disinformation, I hope to give them more food for thought.</p>

<p>Regardless, when I think about how people in general complain or voice legitimate concerns on how difficult life is, I'm reminded of a quote in a book by Tony Brown, Black Lies, White Lies: "When the white man has a cold, the black man has pneumonia." While admissions to selective schools are tough for anyone in general, it is especially difficult for african americans and latinos, for all the aformentioned reasons and more stated in this thread.</p>

<p>Canuckguy,</p>

<p>It’s not a problem. I didn’t know that you were Canadian.</p>

<p>I think Dr. Ogbu was very fair in his research. The article mentions that he waited an entire year before publishing because he wanted parents to have ample time to respond to his findings. Tellingly, not a single parent went to Ogbu and complained about the implications of his research during that time frame. When no one came, Ogbu published. Then, and only then, did parents and school officials decide to react. They are the unfair ones, not Ogbu.</p>

<p>Ronald Ross’s comments are typical of American socialists incognito when discussing this issue. He claims that black underperformance is caused by racism, school underfunding, and unqualified teachers. Yet, the community is one that is highly integrated and historically shunned the phenomenon of white flight. The school system is very well-funded and well-staffed. Ross offers the usual excuses, but they are inconsistent with the reality that is found in Shaker Heights.</p>

<p>Ogbu’s findings aren’t that controversial if we look at them from a race-blind perspective. If one does not put forth much effort into an activity, one should not be surprised if one does not do well. If one places all responsibility into the hands of others, one has relinquished the right to complain about how others handle one’s affairs. Basically, Ogbu wanted to stress the importance of attitude.</p>

<p>I offer an anecdote.</p>

<p>Two years ago, I was studying for the AP Chemistry exam at my school’s library. (I had no class during one of the periods in the morning.) Two students sat a table in front of me. Student X didn’t finish reading Things Fall Apart, and Student Y explained the remainder of the plot to him. When Y finished, X looked up and asked, “Dang, how do you know all this? Y replied, “I’m not in your class; I’m in AP Lit.” X then sucked his teeth in a casual, relaxed manner and said, “Man, [expletive] you, [expletive]. CP Lit good enough for me.”</p>

<p>Both Student X and Student Y are black.</p>

<p>I believe Student Y did well on the AP exam. I stress that when he replied to Student X, he spoke such that it was clear he was proud to be an AP student. Unlike many other black students at my high school, Student Y did not equate academic success with “acting white.”</p>

<p>Attitude matters.</p>

<p>Probably not much. If a 2370 Black girl gets denied at top schools and a 2290 Native American girl also gets denied at top schools, chances are it doesn't help much. How else would you explain those results?</p>

<p>Wow, why don't we let anecdotes dictate all of our analysis. I mean, seriously, once I got sick after I drank water, and I haven't had any water to drink since!</p>

<p>You need more information than their test scores to make such a conclusion. Because I'm sorry: the evidence suggests otherwise. [See UC admission rates for minorities pre- and post- University of California v. Bakke.]</p>