how much is "liking the school" worth?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Massachusetts Institute of Technology
1

<p>I hate to post yet another "which college is better?" thread, but any opinions would be much appreciated here. I'm basically picking between Olin (obviously full tuition scholarship), MIT (no financial aid at all) and Case Western (close to full tuition scholarship). If money didn't matter, I would go to MIT in a minute, I'm absolutely in love it. I visited Olin and I really really WANTED to like it, but it's just too small to be comfortable for me, and I'm not 100% I want to be an engineer specifically. Case is very close to home, much less prestigious, a half-heartedly good fit, and a much better deal than MIT. Can I possibly ask my parents for that kind of money so I can go to MIT over other good schools just because I like it more? Just wondering what you guys would do in this situation. Thanks.</p>

2

<p>There's a big gap between either of your other choices and MIT. I think in this case MIT is probably worth it. If it were choosing between MIT and a truly comparable school, I think it would be legitimate to pay a little more attention to the money, but here the gaps are pretty large.</p>

3

<p>Well there are other schools in the mix (U Chicago, Brown) but I'm not seriously debating them vs. MIT because the money issue is roughly comparable. Olin is actually quite comparable... the placement of their graduates (although they are few in number) was very impressive. They're sending almost 1/7 of their class to MIT, a few each to most of the Ivies, one to Harvard business school, one to Oxford, etc etc... in a nutshell, the graduates make a strong case that Olin will be a big name in a few years. I appreciate your opinion!</p>

4

<p>Oh, I know Olin is comparable in the sense that you will be set in many ways after graduating. But it seems for you the MIT environment and breadth are important, and in that sense Olin doesn't really offer an alternative. That's all I meant.</p>

<p>Good luck with your (hard) decision.</p>

5

<p>How do your parents feel about it? Will this be overwhelmingly difficult? If they are willing and able, be glad for it and pay them back with appreciation and care when they are older. It may be worth every penny to them to see you growing and thriving at the right school. On the other hand, if it causes great stress and they really can't do it, you may be right to consider other options.</p>

6

<p>I've said before (and I'll try to say in a less offensive manner now!) that I think money is money. Sure, it would be nice to go to Case and spend the money on [a boat/a new house/a gold-plated pony]. But if MIT is the place that's going to make you happy, I think that's worth more than five gold-plated ponies.</p>

<p>There are a lot of people here whose parents are making financial sacrifices for us to be here. And I don't think there's a person here who thinks it wasn't worth it in the end. An MIT education, I think, is worth making sacrifices for, particularly if it's a place you feel at home.</p>

<p>If it matters at all, MIT has a history of being a school for sort of "working class kids made good", and it's quite normal here for kids to work because they need the money. Luckily for us, there's really no shortage of good companies falling all over themselves to hire MIT students for internships or jobs. So at least you probably won't have to ask for any spending money on top of tuition.</p>

7

<p>MomOFour - My parents are more able than they are willing, mainly because they got their respective educations at a state school and a community college. Basically, they worked very hard for their money, and they don't see the value of a prestigious education over a cheaper one. I'm an only child, so we can reasonably afford it - but I also don't want to be the stereotypical bratty only child, demanding a top school when I'd do well at Olin/Case too. Thanks for your thoughts, guys. :-)</p>

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<p>ooh wait... bump!</p>

<p>bump because of an update? there's no cool word/phrase for that lol</p>

<p>carnegie mellon matched the scholarship case gave me (i shouldn't be surprised and yet i was) so i now have nearly full tuition to that school. the downside is i don't know as much about it, and i'm still desperately in love with MIT. olin? carnegie mellon? any thoughts on carnegie?</p>

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<p>I sat across a girl at dinner yesterday who was choosing between Caltech and Olin -- similar situation to yours. I realized during the conversation that since Olin is a purely undergraduate place, they're not likely to have truly, really top-of-the-line research faculty in engineering and science because, plainly put, those people are unlikely to take a spot at an undergraduate college over true research universities like MIT (with graduate students and important collaborations). I skimmed through their faculty bios and most of them have Ph.D.'s from low 1st tier places -- certainly not the kind of superstars you would find at MIT or even CMU.</p>

<p>On the other hand, it's quite plausible that someone less consumed by the research culture might in fact be a better teacher. So I guess it depends whether learning from people who are truly #1 in their field is worth it to you. (If it is, knock out Olin. I would, but that's me. Quite the opposite might be true for others.)</p>

<p>CMU vs. MIT is much harder with a full ride to CMU, which certainly has programs in CS and some other fields that are as good as MIT's.... once again, good luck.</p>

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<p>While this is not the Olin board, I feel a need to offer an alternative to some of BenG's comments, as Olin is very dear to my heart.</p>

<p>From what I've heard from students at Olin (and from the limited exposure my son was able to experience), the professors are incredible, and the students there couldn't ask for more involvement or availability or challenge or interest. It's a specialized school with an innovative engineering curriculum: you don't go there if you want to study something other than engineering (and only a few flavors of engineering, at that). But if those are your interests, you won't find a better place to learn and do. The teachers are fantastic and the curriculum is unlike that anywhere else.</p>

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<p>The teachers are incredibly available and interested and involved -- I didn't say they aren't. (The girl I talked with said you can IM your professors in the middle of the night. How's that for involved?)</p>

<p>I said they weren't the leaders in research in their fields, and the typical professor doesn't have a degree from one of the very top engineering programs, as your professors at MIT would; that's all.</p>

<p>Did you misunderstand my comments, mootmom?</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
On the other hand, it's quite plausible that someone less consumed by the research culture might in fact be a better teacher.

[/quote]
My comments were meant to validate this supposition of yours.</p>

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<p>Ben, I'm sorry to keep seeming like a thorn in your side on this issue, but I must insist you get your facts straight, if you're advising a prospective student on where they might want to study for four years. I have just looked through the bios of EVERY SINGLE PROFESSOR at Olin College. Your statements below:
[quote]
I skimmed through their faculty bios and most of them have Ph.D.'s from low 1st tier places -- certainly not the kind of superstars you would find at MIT or even CMU.
...
I said they weren't the leaders in research in their fields, and the typical professor doesn't have a degree from one of the very top engineering programs, as your professors at MIT would; that's all.

[/quote]
are incorrect.</p>

<p>Faculty members at Olin received their PhDs from the following institutions:</p>

<p>MIT: 14
Caltech: 2
UC Berkeley: 2
U Penn: 2
U Chicago: 2
Harvard: 2
Stanford
CMU
Cornell
Dartmouth
Brown
U Florida
U Washington
Northwestern
U Arizona
Florida State U
UT Austin
U Toronto</p>

<p>In addition, a SIGNIFICANT number of faculty members taught at MIT directly before moving to Olin. While Olin may not be a research institution, I reject the supposition that the professors are "not the kind of superstars you would find at MIT or even CMU". Students at Olin are being taught by first-rate professors with degrees and research work at excellent institutions.</p>

<p>And now I will drop this, since this is the MIT board. I just don't like to see people giving an incorrect picture of Olin, its program, or its faculty. It is a <em>very</em> different place from MIT, CMU, or Case, and it's not very well known. Yet. :)</p>

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<p>This is my deep thought on the subject of MIT vs. schools with merit money. And this is the only thing I'm planning to say about it, and if anybody gets mad I'm going to pretend I never said it.</p>

<p>In an awesome</a> poem, A. E. Housman wrote --

Sure, people pick lower-ranked schools which give a lot of merit money over highly-ranked schools every year. And some of them end up working really hard in undergrad and make good and end up in superb graduate programs and/or jobs. And most of them don't.</p>

<p>If somebody handed me a winning lottery ticket, I'd cash it in. I wouldn't wait for the next one.</p>

15

<p>Okay mootmom, you win, apparently. This was a "law of small numbers" problem. I looked at about 5 professors and saw UT Austin, Northwestern, FSU, etc. I was shocked that I didn't see MIT in the proportion your survey indicates. (I bet you would find an even more up-skewed distribution in, say, the MIT department, but that's just a pure guess.) I should have taken a more thorough survey.</p>

<p>Still, I'll stick to my guns on this point: academic culture being what it is, the very top talent in the field will never move to a small undergraduate teaching institution. (Mollie can probably back me up on this, and I don't think this fact varies that widely across different academic disciplines.) The profs at MIT who left weren't the biggest names. (MIT is quite willing to push the salary pretty high to keep those guys. There is also the simple fact that they will never leave because they can't run big, extremely well-funded labs with dozens of grad students at a small teaching college.) </p>

<p>So if you want to be involved in really superior, cutting edge research and extract the benefits of becoming known by the most influential, important professors -- which are invaluable for a career in the long term -- Caltech/MIT are still the places to be.</p>

<p>That's not a reason to turn down Olin in itself -- maybe becoming known by the godfather of this or that field isn't what you want to get out of your undergraduate career.</p>

<p>I do appreciate your keeping me honest, mootmom.</p>

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<p>Mollie!!!! I love this poem. In fact, this poem is the reason I love poetry.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And some of them end up working really hard in undergrad and make good and end up in superb graduate programs and/or jobs. And most of them don't.

[/quote]
This is probably an incorrect guess. Did you do a survey?</p>

<p>I do agree with the basic point. A high-end experience is impossible to beat. Going to a lower ranked place for the money is a bad idea. (Going to an equally good place for the money can be a pretty good idea -- Caltech gives a few merit scholarships per year.)</p>

<hr>

<p>P.S. This got bumped to a new page, but end of previous page has a response to mootmom.</p>

17

<p>Well, my personal inclination (as I suppose you can guess by the simple fact that it is MIT's boards that I haunt) is and has been all along to just commit to the top school and never look back. I have asked around with an honestly open mind and not yet heard a convincing argument to the contrary. I suppose I'll just have to keep working on the parents to agree with me!! Thanks for the help. :)</p>

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<p>Here's my take on it:</p>

<p>If your looking to work for a company (i.e. Microsoft, Google, etc) go to the most prestigious school for that type of work--I do not recommend ever deciding anything before you go to college though.</p>

<p>If your wanting to learn, pick what school suits you best. As long as the professors are significantly more intelligent than you, and the available classes challenging enough for you, choose the school you prefer.</p>

<p>After visiting Rice and MIT, I have encountered a huge dilemma... I like both schools ALOT because each is appealing in its own way. I, however, have decided on Rice almost completely because:</p>

<p>-The professors are amazing
-It is a prestigious school
-I can push myself just as hard at Rice as MIT since the only limitation is myself
-The campus is prettier
-I'm from South Texas and the climate in Boston is too cold for me
-I've found more pretty girls =D
-I REALLY don't like Harvard and being next to it makes me sad =/
-I'm not too much into Greek Life, but the frat guys at Phi Beta Epsilon were great and I would join if I went to MIT</p>

<p>I say that if your comparing schools of similar caliber, go to the one you like/fit in at more.</p>

19

<p>

But this is really exactly my point. The only limitation for really smart kids is always themselves. But just as most people who start diets fail them, most people who enter college with the intention of working really hard and getting into a good job/grad program don't do that. It's not easy to have the discipline to keep your grades up and find a great research job and make buddies with the right professors, especially if you're in an environment that doesn't promote those activities.</p>

<p>It's easier to achieve excellence at a school like MIT. It's like the difference between sitting in your house and deciding to start a diet and exercise plan and hiring a trainer and a nutritionist. Other people keep you accountable.</p>

20

<p>
[quote]
Well, I was just using the assumption that most people in general don't end up at a top-ranked grad program.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Agreed. But this says nothing about most people who turned down MIT for merit money at another (even much lower ranked) school. The one comprehensive study on this subject found the socioeconomic outcomes (earnings, total education, etc.) of people who got accepted to Harvard but turned it down were statistically indistinguishable from the outcomes of those who got accepted and went. (Intriguing, eh?)</p>

<p>Then I saw the morning sky:<br>
Heigho, the tale was all a lie;<br>
The world, it was the old world yet,<br>
I was I, my things were wet,
And nothing now remained to do<br>
But begin the game anew.</p>