How much of the parents involvement looks bad for adcoms?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>I decided to ask this question in the music section - for a reason; as I read cc forums it looks like besides "parents forum" this one (musical) has more active grown-up posters than any other. Our young musicians are too busy ... practicing. :-)</p>

<p>It's been a while since I told my D what I've learned from this forum (and about this forum itself, too :-)) regarding music programs search and admissions, how much this process is more complicated than for "normal" college applicants; I told her that at some point (as soon as possible) the process (if she is really commited to serious music studies at college) will involve a lot of e-mail writing or phone calling to various schools, music departments, music professors about major or non-major opportunities, studio openings, sample lessons arrangements etc.</p>

<p>At first, I felt strongly that she should do it all by herself - if she is motivated enough. If she is not - why should I be? :-) </p>

<p>So far, she couldn't find the time. And right now I see that it doesn't look humanely possible for her to find any in the nearest future. On the other hand, it's getting really close - if we don't do that road trip through many campuses this spring I have no idea when we will. She finally came up with some college list (all over the map ;-)), but if we wait for her to contact each of the school, we might not be able to book the air tickets on time. Therefore, it looks like I'd be the one who must do that job. I don't mind already, but how adcoms will look at the fact of the parent (instead of student) looking for all the information and making all the arrangements? Will they decide the student doesn't show enough interest? </p>

<p>(Actually, reluctance of my D to write or call anywhere (as well as my own) most of all shows the shyness and not being able to put the mind together, decide where and how to start, whom to contact and what to say. It needs some time not only for actual calling/writing, but for some reflection over it and self-pushing as well. ;-) She just doesn't have THAT much time.)</p>

<p>So, who in your musical families did what kind of admissions-related "busywork", musicians or the grown-ups? How typical for the parents to contact the admission offices or music departments or studio teachers? Will it play against the applicant if her anxious mom will write all those e-mails? :-)</p>

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<p>Can't say if this is typical or atypical, but this is what we did. In the winter of her Junior year of HS, DD came up with "the list" Then wife and I did all of the initial contacts and planning for the spring campus visit/lessons, letting DD concentrate on her work. This system didn't seem at all unusual to the profs and Admissions folks I contacted and it worked for us.</p>

<p>Once "first contact" was made, it was up to her to keep up the info and the contacts. We never sat in on a lesson or interview with an adcom, etc. We did go on all tours, attend any parents sessions and had a brief chat with the teachers and DD after a lesson.</p>

<p>The music school admission process seems to be a "team contact sport" with logistics handled by an experienced logistics team (the parents) and financed by venture capitalists (the parents) with the student providing the music and academic expertise.</p>

<p>Now, not to get you freaked or anything, but you really need to get on the stick for those spring campus visits. With most schools finishing up in early/mid-May and the last few weeks centered around juries and senior/junior recitals, along with the spring break, there aren't there many "free" days for you to get in for a visit AND lot's of these may already be booked by other prospective students.</p>

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<p>I've known families where the parents did most of the work and families where the child did most of it; both ways seem to be successful. I'd guess that it's not viewed negatively by the adcoms, partly because they're not necessarily going to know just how much the parent did vs. the child, but also because a lot of parents are very involved. </p>

<p>In our family, I've done virtually all of the planning & setup over the last couple of years. Our rationale was that D's job was to practice, practice, practice. Her dad and I would take care of everything else. Like you, I was concerned that it just wouldn't get done if she had to do it all by herself. Lack of time, shyness, combined with not knowing what to do or who to call. </p>

<p>The result was I researched the schools and teachers, discussed the list with D, she finalized it and went over it to her private teacher. He revised the list slightly and made some additional suggestions for teachers. I set up school visits, talked to admissions, made travel arrangements. I arranged sample lessons up until last summer; at that point, I told D any direct communication with a teacher had to be from her - she needed to be the one establishing the relationship, not me. She also has to be the one to contact any adult she's already met (department head, admissions director, etc). This has been hard for her; we usually talk about what she's going to say or e-mail and sometimes I'll review her e-mails before she sends them.</p>

<p>If we hadn't been so involved, I'm sure D would have been just fine, but she wouldn't have applied to what is now her 1st choice school. She wants to study with a particular teacher and wasn't aware he taught there. Should she have known this? Probably, but she knew he taught at one school and had talked to him about that one. He didn't think to mention the other school since she didn't ask. We only found out about the second school because I googled the teacher and read his bio.</p>

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<p>Tough question. It honestly depends on the kid, their time constraints, time management abilities, ability to prioritize, and to a large degree, their work ethic.</p>

<p>Our scenario was this: S, violist, was the first to enter college, and as luck has it, a performance major. With no family musical background, most of the CCer's here know what that's like.</p>

<p>He found the time to initially research schools, instructors, fill out apps, field phone calls, etc. Of course, we read the information, researched on our own (without knowing the existence of this board), offered suggestions, but the choices of where he wanted to apply were his. Logistics were another matter. I don't know if it's him, or college-aged kids in general, but I had to constantly monitor deadlines and tasks, and it took far more management time than I envisioned to make sure that things happened when they should happen.</p>

<p>When he did make his choice, our only question was "are you comfortable with your studio teacher?" We introduced ourselves to him, and have stayed in the background.</p>

<p>I did handle all the financial paperwork, FAFSA, etc., and did make calls regarding specific task related questions or concerns, basically because there were deadlines that were critical. Other than that, our involvement with the basics were minimal.</p>

<p>From your own perspective:
Are you and your D of the same mind... do you really understand her plans, thoughts, fears, goals, etc.?</p>

<p>Do both of you communicate well enough to honestly answer yes? </p>

<p>Do both of you know the questions to ask? There are so many. Make a list... sit down with her. Add and subtract as necessary. You each will have specific insights here.</p>

<p>There are scheduling issues and tasks that kids either haven't realized or had not previously had to deal with, yet are old hat to us. Is she aware of exactly what has to be done? She may not be, or not have an idea of the impact of one factor on another.</p>

<p>Let her know this resource exists. I wish I had found it five years ago.</p>

<p>I've found it easiest to keep abreast of what's required, and issue periodic email to-do lists to S, who was never the greatest planner. He's at the tail-end of a five year double degree (performance/music ed) and he honestly doesn't have a lot of time to monitor everything. Yet, some deadlines cannot be missed. This at least puts it in front of him on a regular basis. </p>

<p>It's a lot easier to accept an answer of "I didn't have time" as opposed to "I forgot"; wasting time or failing to prioritize is another issue. </p>

<p>I've also done the background research for him on summer opportunities, and numerous scholarship applications, and given links and deadlines. How he handles those is then his responsibility. </p>

<p>I'd try and approach it as being as informed as possible, assign the actual task to your D, and then you followup. If a few things don't get done, you'll have an idea of how well or how much she can actually do on her own, without micro-managing her. </p>

<p>As far as the basics, scheduling appointments, auditions, reservations, you can do it if she can't. I'd let her handle studio teacher contacts, as she is the potential student. She has the major stake here. But if the airline can't be booked until the preview lesson is scheduled, then you have to specifically define responsibilities, timelines, and potential consequences to her.</p>

<p>As a parent, you have every right to be involved in the application and school selection process; administration is aware of this, and this should not raise any red flags or be a detriment to admission. A parent wanting to sit in on the audition or interview is a different story. </p>

<p>And be honest with yourself and her... some things don't happen, it's no big deal. But think about the next four years... if she really can't plan time now,
how will she juggle the rigors of a performance major? Trust me, it's not easy.</p>

<p>Use this exercise as an indicator of future success. It will provide an idea of how well she might function without you as a backup net for the day to day of college life. Knowing this now might save each of you plenty of grief and hand-wringing later.</p>

<p>And once she's in, know your rights under FERPA (Family Educational Rights Privacy Act) now. Address this with her up front, and how you as a family need to approach it. It will save you many hours of frustration in the event you need to be more far more involved than you dreamed you would.</p>

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<p>I don't have much to add except to say that the life of a high school junior/ senior can be pretty frantic as you are experiencing first hand. It is understandable and expected that your daughter will need a lot of help coming up with her list of prospective schools and executing plans for visits, sample lessons, etc. I did the lion's share of those tasks for my S. When I look back, we were both pretty clueless about how to go about the conservatory admissions process; I had not found this forum and did not have the benefit of all this wonderful advice. But starting as early as possible is key and planning to get the most out of each visit by really allowing time for your D to hang around and absorb the atmosphere of each school is important, imo. It is easy to get so absorbed in checking out the teachers, the ensembles and the facilities that we forget to spend time checking out the feel of the place, the kids there and the overall atmosphere. Like any other college, your kid will have to live there for the next four years, so allow yourselves some time to assess that X factor. </p>

<p>I confess that I probably did more for S than I should have in the admissions process--he was so busy that I knew there were things that would not have gotten done if I had not. But now that he is in college, I have been insistent that he handle his business himself. I am happy to talk him through a process or a phone call, but he must take care of it himself. At our orientation last fall, one staff member noted that they routinely have parents of graduate students calling the office trying to take care of some matter for the student and their response was "this is NOT ok." So I guess my feeling is you do what you have to do to get your daughter and yourself through the admissions process, but know that at some point, you will have to help her manage the load of music, academics and the chores of life on her own.</p>

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<p>We did not do any of the initial inquiry "stuff". That was up to DS. DS made the studio teacher contacts, researched and got information from the schools, and about the programs, and talked to the many musicians we know to gain input. We did listen to him and responded if asked. We helped him schedule things without conflicts (set up a calendar, etc) made the hotel and airline reservations, and scheduled times so that we could accompany him for his initial visits. He did his resume and repertoire sheets himself...we proofread. We only met studio teacher IF the teacher asked DS if his parents were with him (which I will add...in DS's case happened in ALL cases...so we met all of his potential teachers). Because most of DS's close friends were also music students, THEY had a lot to share with each other about the process. DS's private instument teacher definitely knew more about what DS was doing for college research than we did. Thankfully, DS shared with us (and I've shared a LOT of that here).</p>

<p>It's funny that you started this thread, because I was actually going to ask you if your daughter was doing any of this research and information gathering herself. In my opinion, she should be.</p>

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<p>As a junior, DD was initially resistant to researching schools, and we told her that was fine as long as she was willing to attend the local U. Staying here isn't her first choice, so she eventually began to develop a list. There were some schools she found from her own reading (and from sifting through all those college brochures), some DH and I added to the list, and some her teacher recommended. She contacted most departments/teachers by e-mail and was pleasantly surprised by the prompt and encouraging responses. DD is shy by nature, so making the initial contact through e-mail was much easier than by phone. She also made most of the audition and visiting arrangements by e-mail as she is rarely home before evening. Her school required a list of all visits and dates before the first trip, which helped her be more organized than she might have been otherwise. I made hotel and flight reservations once she had a schedule worked out. We had to re-schedule one audition due to weather, and she wound up dropping another school from her original list, but for the most part, the audition process has been a fairly smooth one (thanks in large part to this forum!). The whole visit/interview/audition process has been positive, and she is much more comfortable talking to people now than she was a year ago.</p>

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<p>For us, the idea of visiting schools was inspired by BassDad's posts (thanks!), and by then it was fall of senior year. We took a trip to several schools that seemed promising for double degree options; for each, he contacted teachers himself to arrange lessons. The names of teachers came from the summer program and private teachers (and internet research). With one exception, arranging lessons was not difficult by email. I felt that the contacts should be directly by him, without parental involvement except behind the scenes; at the lessons, he was alone with the teacher; it may help for the teacher to see that the student is personally motivated and has the poise to handle it himself/herself. It is definitely possible to do this in the fall of senior year if you don't have time now.</p>

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<p>You are welcome, mamenyu.</p>

<p>I have pretty thoroughly described our process elsewhere, but I took on as many of the mundane and administrative tasks as I could to allow daughter to have that time to practice, do normal high school stuff and even sleep once in a while. I had more than the usual amount of time on my hands because I had just been laid off from my engineering job of twenty-three years (where I have since been rehired as a contractor.)</p>

<p>I handled all of the logistical issues, much of the paperwork (she was responsible for the essays, for the open-ended questions and for maintaining her resume and repertoire list), some of the research (although she chose the schools that she wanted to visit and did a fair amount of research on her own), and none of the decision making. Given her schedule at the time, I don't think she could have taken on much more than she did.</p>

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<p>I think the balance between how much the student does and how much the parent does to manage the process and all of the details depends on the personality and strengths of each of the players. What sources of information are known to the student and the parents also play a role. And how much interaction the parent has with faculty of the schools and at what point may also depend on the personality and philosophy of individual faculty members at the schools. There is no one package of experiences in the process that fits every family, I would venture.</p>

<p>I think a wise parent will always be thinking about how he/she can use the process to help the student grow toward maturity. Most 16-17 year olds don't have the experience with major project planning and the accumulation of life's wisdom to tackle the project independently. A wise mentor will be aware of what previous experience a student brings to the process, what competencies he/she already has in researching, making & maintaining connections, interview skills, etc. The parent will also be aware of how accurately and easily the student communicates concerning details of interactions with people to one who was not present. And, of course the wise parent will also be aware of what knowledge and coaching the student is receiving from other adults.</p>

<p>My daughter doing auditions this year is a later bloomer with respect to organizational and relational skills. I've done a lot of the research and legwork to figure out the music admissions process. I admittedly started out way behind the eight ball on it, not knowing until late August that she really did want to pursue music, first as a minor and now as a major. I have been through the college admissions process once before with my older daughter but music has indeed turned out to be incredibly more involved than I ever could have imagined. All of the questions myau is asking now, I had to find answers for in a short couple of months. </p>

<p>I have been in continuous conversation with my D about my findings. Each time there is new information, I've been careful to have her read it. I've sometimes sent her to search for information that I've already found myself, so that she isn't getting it all handed to her without effort on her part. I negotiated the appointment dates- as D said, you're the keeper of the family schedules and you know when you and I can both be there. I have sat in on meetings with faculty with her. This has helped me to come to an understanding of the culture of a school that can only be gained through personal interaction. She had one lesson where I was not present but another where I was invited in and stayed. At audition time, of course, I'm listening from the other side of the door. In 95% of cases, email communication has come from her, although we have discussed the content before she writes it. I helped her through the admissions forms, checking and double checking everything before she sent them. All through this, I'm constantly checking in with her about the impressions she is forming and preferences that are developing. It is incredible how much she is growing and gradually assuming responsibility as we move through the process. She is also coming to value my observations and including them as data for her consideration. If she had been left to her own devices from the beginning, she would likely not have made much progress. In the end, the final school choice will be hers.</p>

<p>I, think, given the developmental level of most older teens, a parent's significant input and help with the process is appropriate as long as he/she is acting as a mentor, helping the student to learn the ropes as they go about it together. The goal should be that the student would be much more capable of tackling the next huge project with much less parental input into the process. I personally think that parents are important mentors throughout the college experience, and I'm looking for schools that value a parent's wise and considered input into a student's life. If a parent is able to present their involvement with the student's decision as one of mentoring rather than controlling, I don't think it would be a problem for most administration and faculty members. So far, that seems to be the case for us.</p>

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<p>thumper1 </p>

<p>It's funny that you started this thread, because I was actually going to ask you if your daughter was doing any of this research and information gathering herself. In my opinion, she should be.</p>

<p>Why you were so curious about my D's independence? ;-)</p>

<p>Well, her research so far mostly includes reading sometimes (whenever she has time) the college guide books, then going on the web-sites of the schools which made her interested in themselves. And talking to her friends. :-) I urge her to talk about her college choices with her music teachers as well and she says she is going to ... but procrastinates. :-) Actually, I can easily understand, why: as many other artistic people, her teachers may have very different opinions of her level of abilities from one lesson to another - based on the level of her lesson-preparedness that particular day ... or on their currents moods. ;-) I guess at some lessons she is afraid even to mention :-)she is considering music major and looking at some top schools - and she is by herself very unsure how realistic her goals (very unclear ones, too :-)) are. </p>

<p>Similar to foglikely's D, she procrastinated a lot before even starting her college search until I asked her whether she would be content with the choices within UC-system; and made it clear that the only reasonable time we might go visiting out-of-state campuses is this spring break. Then she created some list of colleges to visit we have no way to squeeze into one-week trip even for usual regular routine campus-visiting (tour+info session), let alone sample lessons or any other personal contacts ... Now we think whether it would be unreasonable to take a week more (just after the break) off school. Did anyone do that? How the shool officials and the teachers would react for that?</p>

<p>I agree with you that she should take more iniciative in this proccess. But the way she is now it doesn't look realistic. Maybe I should just sit back and wait for all the deadlines to pass; she would end up in the nearest to home state school - not such a bad outcome ... for me. ;-)</p>

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<p>DS didn't take any weeks off of school for college trips or sample lessons. We either flew or drove with him during school vacations. He also visited one school during the summer. Sample lessons were all done during February and April vacations of his Junior year of high school. He missed some single days of school to get to auditions his senior year. </p>

<p>Re: info from the music teachers...the are absolutely your daughter's best resource because they know her level of playing the best. Her level of consistency plays into her level of playing...and that is important and something that they will consider. Also, talk to other (perhaps older) students who have pursued college music degrees on your daughter's instrument. DS's private teacher, youth orchestra director, and HS band director were his primary sources of information. We also happen to know quite a few folks who are professional musicians and their info was also invaluable. DS's participation in summer music programs also put him into contact with folks within the college music scene. He had a lot of info long before his junior year. In fact, he asked to go on his first college visits the April of his sophomore year. By that time, he had been to summer music programs and had those connections for three years.
It sounds like you are getting as much information as possible. That is a good thing. I'm sure this will all "tease out" as your daughter starts looking at the options.</p>

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<p>Different kids mature at different rates. One of my friends had to DRAG her daughter to colleges, FORCE her to choose an early admit college, and NAG her to finish her college essays. The kid is at Amherst. She suddenly found great independence during the last quarter of senior year and has been at home probably two days since then. The kid is happy as a clam at high tide and fully independent. My friend would have never predicted it from how she was junior and most of senior year.
My kid does not want me interfering too much...I try to make suggestions, most of which he ignores. He wants to talk with people himself, he wades into the grad school brass ensemble and asks the tough questions and he asks kids about their experiences at different schools. I could save him a lot of time (and me a lot of money visiting schools I know don't have what he wants), but he wants to do all of this himself. At the end of the day, I'm not sure it really makes any difference...as much as parents want to helicopter, kids will eventually tell them to leave. If it's not junior year in high school, it will be very soon thereafter...</p>

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<p>Just to add a few notes from our experience: Spring of junior year we made two very preliminary visits, with most of the logistics organized by me, although the actual lessons were organized entirely by DD with the help of her teacher who made the initial introductions for her ("dear XX, I have a very promising student who is considering conservatory studies and I think you would enjoy hearing her play") Please note that if none of her current teachers are willing/able to do that for your D, perhaps there is an indication already that this is not such a realistic goal.
In fact, one of thos early visits was a bit discouraging, but that only increased DD's resolve to make a lot of progress at a summer music program between junior and senior year. All the rest of our visits took place fall of senior year, and we somehow managed to squeeze them in to Columbus Day and other one day holidays so she never needed to take off a week of school (we saved those absences for the Jan-Feb audition season when we really needed them!)
Overall, D's job was to practice and prepare her applications, Logistics were all mine.
I also notice, Myau, that you still seem to be talking about 2 instruments, and I think it might be wise to focus on one for conservatories; I'm not sure what other CC posters think, but it seems to me pretty rare for someone to try auditioning in two separate performance majors.</p>

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<p>I must have lost this...but what are the two instruments of the OP's daughter? This opinion may not be a welcome one...but it's my opinion. IF a student wishes to be a performance major, the student needs to take the initiative in gaining this information and making contacts...oh yes...and in preparing for auditions. Successful performers have more than talent...they have initiative, and "stick to it-ness". If someone is not taking the initiative (at some point...and yes, I recognize that kids do develop this at different times in their lives), perhaps they really are not ready for the rigors of a having to take the initiative for a long time. To be honest, DS took the initiative in his musical pursuits...he brought them to MY attention, not the other way around. I helped with logistics (scheduling airplane trips, etc), but DS did the searching and hunting...oh and this started when he was 9 years old and insisted that I drive him to an audition for a children's choir (he had heard them, he had found the audition notice in the newspaper...I hadn't even heard of the group). Ditto for the precollege ensembles, chamber music groups and even his private trumpet teacher. I was the "gopher", and he was the seeker.</p>

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<p>To the OP's question, "do the schools care?" Yes. They care. Parents are supposed to be interested, but should not be too "in your face". Schools first want to know your child - does he fit in, etc? Second, they want to NOT know you - schools run from pushy parents as much as they run from immature, insecure kids.</p>

<p>What you do at home or behind the scenes is invisible. Do what works for your family.</p>

<p>But on tours, auditions, etc - have your kid be the one they interact with. Have a question? Get your kid to ask. Your kid may thank you later - he or she might want to participate, but not have the experience or background to know what's appropriate. </p>

<p>Most of us music parents have been heavily involved at home. We look for different things than our kids do - price, distance, safety.... It makes sense for us to be involved in travel arrangements or finances or even helping our kids think through the whole brand-new process.</p>

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<p>"But on tours, auditions, etc - have your kid be the one they interact with. Have a question? Get your kid to ask. Your kid may thank you later - he or she might want to participate, but not have the experience or background to know what's appropriate."</p>

<p>I've done some mock interviews with my D, not terribly formally but asking her questions that faculty are likely to ask, so she gets a chance to formulate her answers beforehand, framing them in positive language. I've also asked her to come up with questions for which she hasn't been able to find answers on websites. This has helped her to be more ready to participate- she is a quiet girl who needs time to think about what she's going to say, so practicing before hand has really helped. (My other D, OTOH, is highly verbal: her thoughts are always at the tip of her tongue; just two different kinds of people) </p>

<p>I have jumped in at visit time and asked questions as they occur to me- if it doesn't seem like D is remembering to ask. And I've made comments about D if she doesn't bring up a topic herself. Again, she's been pretty much on her own for auditions (except one for a small school where I was asked to come in). The most selective school, and the one where she auditions this coming weekend, is the only one where we have not had a visit as yet. There has only been email communication from us and it has all come from D, even though she has run her messages by me before she sends them. Her teacher is well known to this school, though, and has communicated her enthusiasm about D. We'll see this weekend how our experience there compares to the others. </p>

<p>For other students like my D who may be less confident at the outset of this process, it might be helpful to visit a smaller school, one that might be known for a nurturing atmosphere, to check out for a first visit. That way the student will get some practice in a real visit/interview situation, and be more ready for independence in a visit to a school with a higher stakes, more selective feel.</p>

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<p>OK, thank you, guys, for your insightful comments. Now, all psychological/phylosophycal/pedoagogical issues aside, I'd like to have a practical advice: the first attempt to contact music departments for us will be definitely e-mails. Does it really matter whose e-address they will come from, my D's or mine? If my D won't find the time in the very nearest future to sit and do all the contacting, i might end up doing it by myself (or it will be too late); given that, should I (for the purpose of not scaring the schools by my "pushy parent" image ;-)) present myself for who I really am (her mom) or pretend to be her? ;-)</p>

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<p>Your call. I did them from mine saying I was the father. You could "ghost" them from hers, have her do them or just be "yourself..."</p>

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<p>Myau, I thought it was important for my son to do his own letters, even though his schedule sounds as crazy as your daughter's. We did carve out time, so that I could sit with him while he did them, but the letters were in his words, from his own computer. </p>

<p>I must confess that I was tempted to write them myself (to save time and stress), but I really do feel like if the kids aren't invested enough to write these letters, how invested in the process are they?</p>