<p>I don't know if this discussion has come up here before, but I'll ask anyway.</p>
<p>I just finished an east coast college visit this last week (I'm from the San Francisco area) and I loved Brown. Without a doubt it's my first choice. Even after visiting all the other amazing schools in New England and the mid-Atlantic states, I loved Brown so much that I want to apply early.</p>
<p>I discussed the fact that I want to apply early with my mom and here is where the problem comes up. My mom doesn't want me to apply early because if I were to be accepted, I would have to go to the school no matter what the financial aid would be.</p>
<p>To give info on my financial aid situation, my family is fairly wealthy but we're in huge amounts of debt. At Brown we talked with the admissions director and he said that when the school considers financial aid they look at many things including how much debt the family is in, how expensive it is to live in the are they live, and if they have other children in college. My family is in huge amounts of debt, living in the San Francisco area is ridiculously expensive, and my older brother is going to a state school in California. So, with all that, there is a possibility that I might get financial aid from a school.</p>
<p>I don't know how much to argue with my mom on this. I don't want to guilt her into letting me apply early and forcing them to pay the ridiculous amount the school costs, but at the same time I feel like it almost isn't fair to me. My parents moved to the area we now live in 8 years ago mostly because of the schools. They've given me so many opportunities to accel academically and have chances to try many differant things. And now that I have the chance to potentially go to one of the most prestigous schools in the nation, they're saying that it would be too much. </p>
<p>I honestly don't know what to do. I want to apply early to have the best chance possible to get in. It would also be wonderful to know I was in a school as early as this December as opposed to waiting until April. How much should I fight my mom on this? From a parents' point of view, what do you guys think? I honestly don't know what to do.</p>
<p>If financial aid is a concern, you should <em>never</em> apply ED (or anything else that would be binding). I can understand your concerns, but look at the worse case scenario. What if you don't get enough financial aid (or any financial aid)? You would be hard pressed to get out of the binding agreement and your family would have to take on even more debt. Also, if your family has a "huge amount of debt" there is a chance that they could have a difficult time getting loans--or at least getting enough loans to cover a large gap in financial aid.</p>
<p>I'm with your mom. Brown is a great school, but there are dozens of great schools. I know, Brown is first, top of the list, for you. They aren't saying Brown "would be too much", but rather that 1) you need to be in the best position to get the best possible offer from Brown; 2) you need to know that there are lots of schools out there that you could love "almost" (but not quite) as much; 3) you need to be able to compare offers - Brown might be first on the list, but might not be if it cost an extra (fill in the blank) which could be spent on other exciting aspects of your education.</p>
<p>Give your mom a kiss - even if she's wrong (which I doubt), she is helping you think these things through, and she loves you!</p>
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discussed the fact that I want to apply early with my mom and here is where the problem comes up. My mom doesn't want me to apply early because if I were to be accepted, I would have to go to the school no matter what the financial aid would be.
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<p>I agree with your mother
schools do consider area expenses but not that much
since you already have a sibling in college- your mother is undoubtably familar with the aid process
Read the threads of students who are trying to back out of schools after being accepted ED.
Read the threads of parents who want to help their child attend their dream school, but are rightfully fearful of putting their own financial future at risk
You say your family is in huge amounts of debt- however aid generally considers income first- not expenses. so if your income is high then a portion of that income can go toward college.
Unless your family has had catastrophic medical expenses, the college is going to assume that the debt was voluntary and not consider it to interfere with your obligation to pay expenses.
I can't speak for Brown, perhaps they do deduct debt from your available income, but admissions doesn't necessarily know the formulas that financial aid uses to evaluate EFC.</p>
<p>Have you used an EFC calculator?
What is your brothers EFC? If his EFC is $20,000 for example- with both of you in school, your EFC may be split making yours $10,000
find out to get a better idea if you would receive any aid or not</p>
<p>one other quick suggestion ... try to gather more facts to discuss with Mom (as opposed to argue over the unknown) ... 1) find the on-line FASA/EFC calculators and get an estimate of how much aid you are likely to need (at least according to the schools) ... 2) investigate Brown's financial policies; does Brown meet 100% of need? if so, how much tends to be loans? With these two pieces of info you can have a better conversation about your options.</p>
<p>I don't know any financial aid office that will give need based aid to a family in tremendous debt living in high cost area and living well. If you lost everything in a tsunami and are living in a trailer trying to rebuild on a pittance, that is one thing, but unless you had some true tear jerking catastrophe, I doubt very much is Brown will be able to help you out if you are in a 6 figure income family living at a nice address. Yes, that your brother is in college will help, but that the college costs for him are relatively low will be taken into consideration. The main driving force for aid is your family income, and there is not a whole lot that can mitagate a high income, including debt payments unless there is a really good reason. So I don't think you should apply binding early, as I do not think anyone should apply that way who has money issues up in the air.</p>
<p>I suggest that you apply to a whole bunch of colleges including Brown making sure you also apply to schools that have merit aid possibilities such as Tulane, Emory, Miami, Vanderbilt, and start searching for some schools that may fit you where your stats are waaay up there as well. Throw in a few highly selective ones as well as Brown if you are coveting any. But Brown and the other ivies only give need based aid, and I am skeptical that you will qualify for enough to make the option viable over a UC school. Of course, you should apply to the UCs or Cal States as well as financial safeties. You can apply to a number of schools early action without being bound--Tulane and Miami have that option, I know. The problem with binding ED is that if they do not come up with enough money, and I really doubt they will despite what the FA officer told you, you are going to have some problems.</p>
<p>MUZICMAN: to be honest, it's too soon to begin such a fight. You won't be applying to any school until the Fall. The most important thing that you can do right now is be sure that your grades are at their very best this term and the next because colleges look at those two terms as extremely important. </p>
<p>Also, you might want or need to visit some other schools, taking into account your grades and SAT scores, as you and your parents may want to consider some other possible backup schools besides UCs.</p>
<p>Brown, as you probably know, is a very popular choice among college applicants nowadays. Unless you have something really really special (also known as a "hook") your chance of admissions are probably around one in 15 or 20, at most. Applying ED may make the chances better, but it's hard to say by how much.</p>
<p>You and your parents will have to decide in the end just how much money they can put into college education, whether or not you consider it "fair". College costs are very similar to house-buying in the Bay Area in terms of "sticker shock" and rising costs. If you want to go to Brown that much, you may have to show your maturity to your parents by putting together good reasons why you should apply ED no matter what the cost will be (because by doing so you and your parents will have committed to pay for whatever the costs turn out to be - the admissions person you spoke with will have little or no input into any financial aid award).</p>
<p>Oh yes, by the way, experience of many of us parents has shown that our kids' ways of thinking can change quite a bit from the spring of the junior year to the fall or spring of the senior year, including their thoughts about which college is "right" for them.</p>
<p>Good luck with the process and with your application(s).</p>
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<p>I don't want to guilt her into letting me apply early and forcing them to pay the ridiculous amount the school costs, but at the same time I feel like it almost isn't fair to me.</p>
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<p>Wah, wah ,wah!! It's not fair! Well, life isn't always fair. Unless you're paying for your own school, it's their money and they are free to make their own choices on how to spend it. </p>
<p>Sorry to be so harsh, but I feel you need to take a different approach with this.</p>
<p>you can find the fafsa and other aid calulator on the CB website...try it, and see what is shows. Unless that debt was from medical expenses or other emergency, expect your efc to be high if your parents income is mid-six figures (which, btw, is the top 5% of income nationally)</p>
<p>If you are able to live a middle class life in the SF Bay area then you will not qualify for any financial aid. I also live in the bay area and in order to live here you have to have a pretty high income. The mediam house price is over 700K which will only buy you a small house. Id guess your parents are making somewhere between 100 and 200K, which is paycheck to paycheck here in SF bay. You need an income of over 160K to buy the mediam priced home. Our EFC was 88K! The good news is that californias schools are the best publics in the nation. There is no tuition and fees are approx 6.5K for a UC and 2.5K for a State school - so you are looking at a total cost of 16-20K per year. While we may get ripped off for everything else we get a deal on college.</p>
<p>I'm with your mom. If financial aid and/or college costs are a consideration to your family, you should not apply ED. Period. You simply can't afford to bind yourself to a college like that.</p>
<p>In addition, you need to open your mind to seriously considering more colleges than Brown, including colleges that you definitely know that your family can afford. There are many more colleges that could offer you a fulfilling experience.</p>
<p>Just because we want something in this life doesn't mean we have to get it or that's the only thing that will make us happy. My fave car is a silver VW bug. I can't afford one. I drive a car that I can afford, and I don't waste my time being resentful about not having a bug.</p>
<p>Welcome to the plight of so many Cali kids. Becuase of the high cost of living and housing most families with incomes that look great other places can not afford private colleges for their children. Most families described as fairly wealthy won't get financial aid as they are sure to have significant home equity if they've owned a home for 8 years in the Bay Area.</p>
<p>You ahould deal with realities before applying so as not to end up like so many who post here who have acceptances at colleges they can't afford and are bitter about it. College is just another consumer product, if you can't afford a Mercedes you probably can't afford a $40K college.</p>
<p>I've seen kids in my community do various things which puts them in a position to swing it. Working double shifts and after school as Jamimom describes and socking away every penny. Asking grandparents to contribute. Taking on significant loans in their own names.</p>
<p>I have never met a CA family who wasn't shocked by their EFC. If your parents have only had to deal with a CA State school they will be especially shocked when they see what privates consider that CA State schools don't. So look at the full financial picture before you make a college list. Good luck.</p>
<p>"Welcome to the plight of so many Cali kids. Becuase of the high cost of living and housing most families with incomes that look great other places can not afford private colleges for their children. Most families described as fairly wealthy won't get financial aid as they are sure to have significant home equity if they've owned a home for 8 years in the Bay Area."</p>
<p>I know one mom with 5 kids, living in the L.A. area. $160k income. She remortgaged the house 5 times, once for each of the kids, paid the full tuition, and each time came out ahead. Her attitude was that, if the market went down, with all those kids out of the house, she was going to go find an apartment anyway.</p>
<p>No tears for those with California real estate, not when the median family income in San Francisco is $49k.</p>
<p>I'm with her and we'll be putting all on the line to pay for private colleges, but that's not a popular approach here wher people tend to believe the UCs are just as good.</p>
<p>The one thing I cannot give advice to is a post that starts out with "How much should I battle my mom..." That is like asking to do battle with the Pope. You will not win it (none of us ever have). Based on your post, my personal sense is that she is guessing right; Brown is not likely to give you much in financial aid.</p>
<p>Muzicman-- there's debt and there's debt. If your family has taken out a second mortgage to pay for a grandparents nursing home, or to finance a liver transplant for a sibling, or god forbid, any one of a hundred unexpected, life altering emergencies, you have a shot at writing the world's most eloquent "special circumstances" letter with your financial aid application. If we're talking about credit cards out the whazoo to pay for ski trips and restaurant meals and what-not, the colleges take the view that those funds could be diverted to pay your tuition without a catastrophe falling on the family.</p>
<p>I can't tell your parents how to manage their resources, but you need to get a better handle on the family's finances so you can make some mature decisions going forward. If the income is there but it's going to finance a lifestyle that your parents are unwilling to alter, you need that reality check right now... not 12 months from now, when you're looking at a full pay admission at Brown and no financial back-ups.</p>
<p>One thing you could do, though, is to write Brown a letter with your RD application, telling them that it was your first choice but you could not apply ED because of financial considerations, but that if things work out financially/all colleges cost the same, or something to that effect, you'd go there in an instant. Also use it to tell your Brown story- the first time you heard of Brown, interesting quotes from students you've met on campus, the things that you love about Brown- not just the normal things, but specific programs/places/small quirky things. </p>
<p>Someone on the parent's forum (and I can't thank them enough) once suggested that to another student. I wrote this kind of letter to Pomona, and I think it was part of the reason I was accepted. This kind of letter can help you get across your demonstrated interest like ED would.</p>
<p>MUZICMANn8 - What a thread! There's great advice in here. Normally I'd let well enough alone, but I lived in SF for five years and for the past few years I've been near Brown. And I've just finished getting DD #1 into a competitive college, so my experience is current.</p>
<p>Brown is indeed an incredible place. It's about as close to California as we get on the East Coast! Unfortunately Brown is also relatively poor from an endowment standpoint. There are certainly instances where needy students get aid, but I add my voice to the chorus that says your family's situation will be a tough sell. I think Timcob and zagat have it exactly right.</p>
<p>That stated, you are only going to college once so I would encourage you to vigorously pursue your dream of attending Brown -- vigorously AND ethically. Brown is very difficult to get into. Applying ED will give you an advantage as it is the ultimate demonstration of interest. Yes, the FA package might be insufficient based on today's circumstances. On the other hand, as other posters have pointed out "a lot can change in a year." But to do this ethically you MUST make clear to Brown the minimum amount of grants and scholarships you need. If they accept you and offer less then you can't afford to attend -- and that is a legitimate reason to back out of a ED situation. You should also let your Mom know that you respect her financial situation, and that you will not compromise it -- even if it means turning down a Brown acceptance.</p>
<p>I'd also point out that MOST people on CC who are trying to back out of an ED acceptance are doing so because they've changed their mind about which school they want to attend. I don't recall many instances where the problem was an inadequate FA package.</p>
<p>In summary I say go for your dream, but do in in way that is fair to all parties. And please, DO have a backup plan in case Brown doesn't work out. Good luck to you!</p>
<p>actually, NewHope, there has been a lot of traffic about kids applying ED and then after the acceptance, the parents realizing that either they can't or won't pay the tab. I don't think your advice to Muzic is very practical and is a recipe for a lot of heartache. Anyone can plug their numbers in to one of the financial aid calculators and get a reasonable idea of how much aid they qualify for... and if the OP's family income is too high to qualify, it seems naive to apply ED with the hope of a miracle. </p>
<p>If I were in his shoes, I'd have a candid talk with M&D about how much they can, or are willing to contribute, and then come up with a plan based on that reality which may include merit aid, outside scholarships, taking a gap year to get a fulltime job, In-state for all or part of the four years, etc. The likelihood that Brown is going to come up with a substantial amount of $ for a kid whose family doesn't qualify for financial aid is very, very remote.... and the song, "we have a high income but lots of debt" isn't a very original one to a financial aid officer.</p>