How much would being an international applicant hurt my chances at HYPMS?

Chance Me / Match Me!
1

<p>I am an South Korean international student studying in Canada (I am studying in Canada as a foreign student, so I'll be considered as South Korean on the actual application; I've been here for 5 years now). I am a junior currently.</p>

<p>Many people say being an international can really decrease one's chances at HYPMS (especially Harvard and MIT) because the pool is so competitive. But then someone also told me that some schools, including Harvard, do not consider whether an applicant is domestic or international during the application process. I would like to know what the truth really is, and if internationals have way lower chances at these top schools, by how much. </p>

<p>I won't write my stats for now since I am a junior and many people seem to bash juniors asking for chances; but if anyone is willing to evaluate my chances, I will put my stats up and will greatly appreciate it. </p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

2

<p>someone has suggested to me through PM that I should probably post my stat so that people who know their stuff can reply to my question...so here goes..</p>

<p>Junior at a very competitive public high school in Canada (selected as Canada's top academic school by McLeans, don't know if that means much tho haha :P...school IB average last year was 5.60 out of 7, world average being around 4.5... #1 school in Alberta for the last 12 years or so)</p>

<p>International student (citizen of South Korea, non-citizen in Canada); have been studying in Canada for 5 years. </p>

<p>I will DEFINITELY need financial aid. </p>

<p>No SAT's taken yet...taking SAT I in 2 weeks lol. hoping to get 2300+, but probably won't haha</p>

<p>Freshmen (Juinor High)
GPA: around 97%, can't remember exactly
class rank: 2 / 250 or so</p>

<p>Sophomore year (High School)
GPA: 95.4%
Rank: 2 / 128 </p>

<p>Junior year (now)
First term GPA: 96.6%
Rank 1 / 128 so far</p>

<p>Courseload:
English 20B
Mathematics 30B
Social Studies 20B
French 30B
Biology 20B
Chemistry 20B
Physics 20B
Instrumental Music 20
Art 20</p>

<p>IB Diploma Candidate</p>

<p>Extracurricular Activities
- School Instrumental Band (Gr. 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
- School Jazz Band (Gr. 7, 8, 9)
- School Basketball Team (Gr. 8, 9, 10, 11)
- Mathematics Club (Gr. 10, 11)
- Debate Club (Gr. 10, 11)
- Science Olympics (Gr. 9, 10, 11)
- School Drama Production Orchestra (Gr. 10, 11)
- Student Union Room Rep Alternate (Gr. 11)
- Invited to 2004 Summer Regional Math Camp at University of Alberta</p>

<p>Volunteer/Work Experience
- Canadian Blood Services Youth Committee (Gr. 10, 11)
- Various school events
- Tutoring in all subject areas - 4~5 hrs/week (Gr. 10, 11) </p>

<p>Awards
Grade 9
- 2004 Edmonton Junior High Mathematics Competition Invitational – 2nd place
- 2004 Science Olympics – 2nd place in Edmonton
- 2004 Kumon Math Challenge – 4th in North America
- 2004 Stop Racism Poster Competition – 3rd in Edmonton
- 2004 School awards (Honours, Top 5 Academic Award, Art Award, Wellness Award: voted by peers)</p>

<p>Grade 10
- Alberta High School Math Competition – Top 50, which qualified me for part II
- Canadian Open Mathematics Competition – Top 25%
- Gr. 12 Euclid Math Competition – Top 25%
- Gr. 11 Fermat Math Competition – Top 25%
- Gr. 11 Hypatia Math Competition – Bronze Standard
- Michael Smith Science Challenge – 1st in Alberta
- Science Olympics – 2nd in Edmonton
- School awards (Honours with Distinction, Highest Achievement Awards in Mathematics 20B, Biology 15B, French 20B, Science 10B, Chemistry 25B)</p>

<p>Grade 11 Extracurricular Plan (some of these were mentioned above)
School Varsity Basketball Team
Math Club Vice-President
Amnesty International Club
Multicultural Club
Debate Club (going to a few tournaments)
Aventis Biotechnology Challenge (national biotechnology competition)
Several math/physics competition
Award's Committee for 2004~2005 year school award's night
Canadian Blood Services Youth Committee (approx. 2hrs / week)
Tutoring
Accelerated Learning Club (outside of school) (approx. 3hrs / week)
School Orchestra for a Musical play - trumpet player (probably around 30 hrs total for the whole year)
nominated by the school to take part in Global Young Leaders Conference in Washington D.C. in the summer 2006..don't know if i'll be accepted though
going to apply to about 3~4 summer programs </p>

<p>considering that i am an international applicant, what would my chances be?</p>

3

<p>Your chances are VASTLY reduced by needing aid. Especially if you need a lot. No school in the United States is need blind to International students; not even Stanford, who prides themselves on being the most sincerely need-blind institution in the world. </p>

<p>The financial aid category for internationals is the last one to be met by the admissions financial aid budget. That's not to say it can't happen, but that the chances are very very slim. I would suggest going to lower school (tier 1 to tier 2) and gaining permanent residency while you study there, so you can do graduate work at HYPSM for free with work stipend.</p>

4

<p>"Your chances are VASTLY reduced by needing aid. Especially if you need a lot. No school in the United States is need blind to International students"</p>

<p>Not true. What is true is that very few schools are need blind to internationals, and those few are among the top colleges in the country. Harvard is one.</p>

5

<p>The rep from Harvard that came to our school said, "The only way financial aid matters is if you're in the international pool."</p>

<p>*Edit: So did the Stanford rep. I think Princeton is the same because one of my Chinese friends was talking about it, but I can't call that one for sure. </p>

<p>Also, you must note that even the worlds most steadfast needblind universities are still need-aware. Even if they don't know how much money you need, they still know whether or not you need money. </p>

<p>There's always a box on the application that says "Will you be applying for financial aid?" Even on Harvard's.</p>

<p>If the institution truly doesn't care, then why would they include that bit of information on the regular application at all?</p>

6

<p>HVSahin is right. No top school in the US is need-blind to international students. You are a solid candidate, but if you need a ton of aid you might not find it. However, graduate school is always an option for top schools.</p>

7

<p>HYP and MIT are need-blind to international students.</p>

8

<p>
[quote]
If the institution truly doesn't care, then why would they include that bit of information on the regular application at all?

[/quote]

Well that's pretty stupid. How else are they suppose to find out that you need financial aid? Do you expect them to be telepathic now?
You'll probably say they will use your financial aid form. But wouldn't you think that these two departments communicate? They ARE part of the same university after all. </p>

<p>
[quote]
HYP and MIT are need-blind to international students.

[/quote]

that's what they say :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>I don't quite get the tone of your last post (it's hard online). </p>

<p>It wouldn't be too difficult to manage financial aid if all they had to do was process the financial aid applications they receive. What's the point of putting it in the regular application?</p>

<p>The two could easily be completely separate. But they're not. I wonder why...</p>

10

<p>haha this is so confusing. I sure hope that they don't take into account that I need finaid when I apply, but I guess if someone had similar credentials as mine and did not need any finaid, they'd pick them over me. :( </p>

<p>My parents are willing to pay about 15k~20k a year, meaning I'll need about 30k~40k of finaid per year. Is that too much to ask?</p>

11

<p>It's a lot, but when you think about there ARE people who get full rides to Stanford. I'm sure if you held down a job and applied for some merit-based scholarships you'd be fine.</p>

12

<p>I can assure you that MIT is need blind for international students. However, the result of this is a quota for international students (~5% of all applicants). If you want a lengthy explanation (MIT approved!) you can PM me, but I promise you that requiring financial aid won't hurt you at MIT (although being an international will).</p>

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<p>Olo: So technically the quota makes it just as competitive for international students as requiring aid does elsewhere. What's the point?</p>

14

<p>What's HYPMS?</p>

15

<p>HV: Look at it in terms of a lesser evil, which is worse:
Being in a more competitive pool because
* You live outside of the US or
* You are poor.</p>

<p>This allows them to draw the line using merit, rather than money. Frankly, I think it's more fair to discriminate US vs. Not US than it is Rich vs. Poor, don't you?</p>

16

<p>I guess so. I can't hold it against colleges either. Why not admit the rich? Statistically, they're more likely to be rich later in life, so it's more of a sure investment.</p>

<p>Good on MIT for not caring about wealth then. I also think they don't care about legacy either. They're really unique.</p>

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<p>HV: Is it sad that although we live 30 seconds apart, we're communicating over an internet forum?</p>

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<p>South Koreans accepted to any Ivy league has a fair chance of getting a full (yes) scholarship from the Gwanjung Janghakgum Association. About 60 Korean Ivy Leaguers are awarded each year...ever considered that? (you have to major in some sort of science to get it thou)</p>

<p>You also have Samsung, LG....man, there's tons for Korean Ivy leaguers. So if you think the financial aid request will hurt you....don't put it there. Realize that there are other ways (like robbing a bank...har har)</p>

19

<p>"There's always a box on the application that says "Will you be applying for financial aid?" Even on Harvard's.</p>

<p>If the institution truly doesn't care, then why would they include that bit of information on the regular application at all?:</p>

<p>So they know whether to tell financial aid if you are admitted. That way, financial aid knows to send you an aid package.</p>

<p>Presumably, too, financial aid can't do all of the calculations for the accepted students at the last minute, so my guess is that admissions tells financial aid early when students who apply for aid are obvious rejections.</p>

20

<p>You make a good point Northstarmom, but the cynic in me still can't believe that the information there isn't used to discriminate against students. </p>

<p>~40% of Stanford didn't even ask for financial aid. Those 40% are in the top income bracket (top 1%) of the United States. That can't be coincidence. And although there is a high correlation of wealth to education that may have given these students the credentials to be accepted, you and I both know there are more than enough less-than-wealthy individuals who are just as qualified academically who didn't get in.</p>