A source? Starts with the college I work for.
That’s surprising because it is not the holistic way, in most cases.
My son used to do some off season practices with a kid who would be an eventual 4 time state champion wrestler in the small division. My son got 5th in the big class his freshman year. I asked it they ever practiced together. He said no, because my son was so far ahead of the state champion that it was a waste of time for both of them.
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The original question was, “…exaggerated on CC.” Of course, it’s a possibility.
Why would they? Who knows? Some ideas were cited above.
My back point is still: If a kid thinks it’s all about stats, the sorts of EC things they often list in a Chance Me, or “spike,” (especially when it’s stuffed with the inconsequential,) his approach is off. Imo/ime.
“I don’t think anyone here is trying to make the argument that those students don’t exist, it’s just that it seems an absurd number of students or parents of a students on CC seems to think that either themselves or their child is the next Albert Einstein or Leonardo da Vinci”
I do agree with you on the Einstein comparisons, but the kids at the local schools in the bay area that win these awards do not come on c/c for a number of reasons, one is that they have a pretty good of where they’ll get in, two is that they know they will get judged harshly.
“My back point is still: If a kid thinks it’s all about stats”
You keep bringing this up as some sort of strawman, if kids thought it was all about stats, why would anyone participate in an EC or a sport or do community work, or whatever, because according to you they’re all studying for tests and working on essays.
You can use ime/imo all you want, but I think your posts can be discouraging, you consistently denigrate science fairs and olympiads. Here’s a blog from MIT assistant director:
On why he attends ISEF, “It’s a great opportunity to see some of the most promising future scientists and engineers ahead of time, like seeing a future Hall of Famer play at your local minor league affiliate.”
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C’mon, TM. I said, "stats, the sorts of EC things they often list in a Chance Me, or “spike,” (especially when it’s stuffed with the inconsequential,) his approach is off.
And it’s only one post ahead of yours, right there.
I can’t remember the last time I commented, in any respect, on science fairs (if you mean high school level, what kids call a local “science fair” when they list in Actvities.) So? When it’s specified as the more competitive like ISEF, it’s clearly another matter.
And I think math or science Olympiads are a great idea for stem kids aiming high.
Nor do I think they’re all studying for tests all the time. So who’s lobbing the strawman?
I do think misplaced efforts on essays are, well, misplaced.
The next Einstein May not get into T20 school in US.
E does not play varsity sport.
E is not a president of any club.
E does not have 3.8 uwGPA
E only take 3 honors and 3 APs classes.
E is not interested in dual credits at any university.
E does not have 100 volunteer hours
E tries to be YouTuber but only has 2000 followers.
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So he’ll labor a few years for the Swiss Patent Office, then publish a little paper that will change everything. No biggie 
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Does the US really want to encourage him to go abroad? Unlike the early 1900s there’s less reason to come to the US later on…
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Stats like GPA 4.0s, SAT 1540+, ACT 35+ are so commonplace nowadays they can no longer be exaggerated, unless someone is unaware of the landscape (there are literally tens of thousands of those).
But a lot of frequent posters here always dismiss the importance of stats and claim that they don’t matter or they matter very little in college admissions; that is just misleading. By my observation stats beyond the grades and test scores, that can differentiate the applicants still are the most important factors in selective college admissions if applicants are unhooked.
There is an interesting list on this board that sort of gives one a sense what impressive stats would look like beyond the grades and test scores:
10: Congrats
D1 athlete
IMO/IPHO/ICHO/IBO/IOI/IOAA/IOL
gold/silver medals
Regeneron STS Top 10; ISEF Top 3 Grand Prize;
History Day National Winner
Single/First Author in High Impact Factor Journal
Special performance/Solo at Carnegie Hall
International Competitor in a Sport
Boys Nation President
RSI (Research Science Institute)
9: Almost a ticket to a prestigious school
Regeneron STS Finalist; ISEF Best of Category
MOP
NSDA Nationals winner
Tournament of Champions Winner
NCFL Nationals Winner
Published in a relatively prestigious journal
TASP
National Student Poet
Jimmy Awards (musical theatre)
8: Amazing accomplishment; Large boost
USAMO qualification; AMC 12 Perfect Score; USAPhO/USNCO/USABO/USACO National Finalist
Intel ISEF 1st-4th place category; Regeneron STS semifinalist; Davidson Fellow; Presidential Scholar; MIT PRIMES; MITES
FIRST Dean’s List winner; top 5 at FIRST World Championships
Google Code Jam Round 2, 3 Qualifier (Vast majority of Competitors are College students and professionals)
Facebook Hacker Cup Round 2, 3 Qualifier (Vast majority of Competitors are College students and professionals)
International Public Policy Forum Top 32 team
Writing Portfolio Gold Award; Presidential Scholar of the Arts; Scholastic Art;
All National Band or Orchestra performer
Boys Nation Participant
SIMR
Clark Scholars
7:
ARML Tiebreaker Round; USAMTS Gold Medal; HMMT top 50
CMU SAMS; NIH Research; Iowa Writer’s Workshop; SUMAC; ROSS; SSP; Simons; PROMYS; Mathcamp; Garcia
State governors schools with acceptance rate <15% (PGSS, NJGSS, most other science governor’s schools)
USACO Platinum Division
ISEF Finalist
Top Team, YES Competition (Young Epidemiology Scholarship)
History Day National Level
Scholastic Art & Writing National Gold Medal. NFL Nationals (speech and debate) “breakers” (elimination rounds), Tournament of Champions (debate) “breakers,” Congressional Award Gold Medalist
International Public Policy Forum Top 64 team
Foyle Young Poet
US Senate Page
6:
(6.5) Google Code Jam Qualifier (Vast majority of Competitors are College students and professionals)
(6.5) Facebook Hacker Cup Qualifier (Vast majority of Competitors are College students and professionals)
USACO Gold Division
AMC 10 Perfect Score
Less competitive governor’s schools (Acceptance rate between 15% and 25%), any other scholarship summer programs not aforementioned
Congressional Award Silver Medalist; NFL Nationals; Tournament of Champions Qualifier
Science Bowl/Ocean Science Bowl/NAQT winners; Technology Student Association Nationals
FIRST Dean’s List finalist; Top 5 FIRST Super Regionals (FTC)
Scholastic Art & Writing National Silver Medal
State Science Fair Winner/Top Award (Depends on state)
Academic Decathlon State (CA) Honors Top 3
University-run poetry contests (Patricia Grodd Prize, Lewis Center at Princeton Prize, etc)
Very selective summer programs (acceptance rate 10-15%: TASS, UC Davis YSP, IOWA SSTP, BU RISE, UCSB RMP, HCSSiM, BOA Student Leaders, HSMC, Rockefeller SSRP, EFL, M&TSI…)
5: Pretty good; will complement an already strong record
FBLA Nationals
USAPhO/USNCO/USABO/NAO semifinals
AIME qualification
National Latin Convention 1st Places Academic Contests,
All-Eastern/all-regional music, State History Day top 3 place
Top 5 FIRST State Championship (or Regionals for FRC), JETS TEAMS National Finalist, Skills USA Nationals
Academic Decathlon State (AZ/TX/MA/WI), Nationals Top 3 Honors & California Event Golds
Selective summer academic programs (acceptance rate 15-25%: UC COSMOS, UF SSTP, Wharton LBW, MIT Launch…)
4: Fairly difficult
USACO Silver Division
Science Fair Regional winner
Science Bowl national qualification
Perfect Score (Multiple Years) on National Latin/Spanish/French Exam
State awards (all-state music, etc)
Academic Decathlon State (AZ/TX/MA/WI) Event Golds
National Merit Finalist
MUN Gavel
AMC 10/12 school winner (depends on your school)
Art and Writing Regional Gold award
Top 5 FIRST Regional (FTC)
Position in Local Government
National AP Scholar at Junior Year
3: Some effort involved, but not uncommon
Student Body
Winning at local/regional science fairs
All-County music
Eagle Scout Gold Award (with prior Silver and Bronze Awards)
Head of a competitive club that you did not found (ex: Mock Trial, Model UN, Science Olympiad)
Editor in chief of award-winning school newspaper
Head of a club with large membership and substantial activities (Interact Club)
2: Your average go-getter
Bank of America Awards
Presidential Service Award Volunteering Gold
Local awards/trophies
Essay Contests
Regional History Day
1: Common activities
National Honor Society
Beta Club
School Departmental Awards
School Honor Roll
Key Club; CSF; Interact Club
National Merit Commended
Member of a club with no distinctions earned
0: A dime in a dozen; meaningless
Who’s Who; National Honor Roll; National Society of High School Scholars
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There is no question that this kid worked hard, is super smart and super talented, and has an amazing achievement. The issue is that:
A. “his high school has a research seminar class”. This type of class is almost never available to schools which serve middle class families of poorer.
B. “placed him in a lab at CU Boulder” the ability to travel, spend time there, etc, is also something that kids who are in lower middle class families cannot do.
My point is that the opportunities that this kid had because they are high SES are not available for kids who are just as smart and talented , but do not have access to the opportunities of high SES kids.
These opportunities should be available to lower income families as well, with the emphasis on “as well”.
Kids like the “discovered a compound” kid are, deservedly, considered to be up at the top. However, those top spots should not only be achievable to high SES kids, but to low SES kids as well.
These type of kids extremely rare, and we are missing out because we are only providing about 1/2-1/3 of them with the opportunities to demonstrate their abilities.
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Impressive and an admit are not an automatic relationship. It really doesn’t matter if anyone want to dismiss my ime. Take it or leave it. It’s the end results that tell and anecdotes are often not enough. Plus, a lot of these kids are gunning for Harvard, MIT or Stanford, maybe Caltech, depending. Yup, other colleges can be looking over their shoulders and react accordingly.
I don’t have perfect insight, nope, and I’ve admitted it. But I do have observations. No big whoop-de-do. So do others. No accolades expected. And time and again, I’ve seen the college’s review comments that, despite the hierarchical superiority, more is needed, what some call the softer elements.
I’m just sharing; generally, hoping to steer a kid to a wider view that stands a chance of a good payoff. If that’s “discouraging,” well, it IS a tough process, a fierce competition.
There’s an easy difference between someone saying, “It’s not stats,” and saying, "It’s not all about stats. Ok?
When a kid posts and it’s focused on stats, some typical ECs, misunderstandings of “spike” or “passion,” per what I’ve observed, when they’re so unilateral or their haute ECs are not some of those relevant to the college or possible major, etc, I DO wonder if they understand “the rest.”
And when they do exaggerate, (whether that’s numbers or overestimating the importance of some elements in their minds/their apps, yeah, a bell goes off.
Hierarchical superiority definitely counts, the MIT adcom was at the finals where they announce the winners (hierarchical), coaches extend offers to athletes who have the higher gpa/scores and play the sport at a div 1 or 3 level, all hierarchical.
“Plus, a lot of these kids are gunning for Harvard, MIT or Stanford, maybe Caltech, depending. Yup, other colleges can be looking over their shoulders and react accordingly.”
Are you saying these kids rejected by the next set of colleges? That really doesn’t happen a lot, the reason these kids don’t get into those is not because of soft skills but because MIT and Cal Tech are smaller and H/S have other institutional priorities (legacy, athlete, urm, first gen etc.).
“These opportunities should be available to lower income families as well, with the emphasis on “as well”.”
Agree, but a lot of this starts in middle school, the low-SES families need to be informed when their kids are in 6th or 7th grade about these kinds of opportunities. That’s when the outreach should be done.
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In Colorado, they are. The “discovered a compound” kid attended a public high school that is open to every student who lives in the zoned district. And, because of Colorado’s Public School of Choice law, any student outside of the zoned district can also enroll if space is available.
There are many similarly excellent public high schools throughout the metro area. Yes, school inequality exists within districts, but lower income families do have the option to select schools with more resources and/or specialized programs.
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That is great, and it makes me glad to hear about this.
I have definitely seen hierarchical superiority discounted. Not every case. A lot still hinges on the full app he/she submits.
I referred to what I have seen. I don’t know why some folks on CC are more comfortable with generalized assurances from the crowd of what matters or doesn’t.
Yes, the MIT guy commented. Is that enough to assure anyone they’ve discovered some element of formula? (It’s input. Same as my observations.) True, there are few of these sorts.
Yes, I have seen kids rejected based on this look over the shoulder. It’s not automatic. Again, there’s a full app to look at. I’m not sure you know how often this happens. But you seem to be proposing hierarchical aspects DO have some ultimate determining weight. In and of themselves, without further evaluation. Not sure how you get there. (Athletes are another matter.)
Im sure you’ve read the MIT admissions blogs and posts by some of their reps on CC.
Further, I’m advocating more than a look at anecdotes or any onesie quotes. So be it. Take it or leave it. But any kid can consider some CYA.
That is great @mountainsoul but requires the low income family to be informed about the “better” schools, know how to negotiate the system, and have the means to transport their student to a HS not in their area. Plus, there has to a be an opening, which are likely less available in the highest performing schools. Certainly, a positive but there are still significant impediments for low income students to attend high performing schools.
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It needs to start even earlier, with better academic opportunities for low income families in grade school. One of the biggest reasons that policies like affirmative action fails is because they seem to think that admissions to an “elite” college is a way to make up for the failures of the system, when often it’s nothing more than another setup for failure.
One of the great thing in Israeli universities was the opportunity to take a prep year before starting your actual degree, in which the students will be able to catch up. It really usually takes only a year, even for students who failed out of high school.
So aside from investing in schools in low SES areas, until the effects of that percolate up, I think that there should be the opportunity for kids who come from underserved communities to take a year to “catch up” academically, rather than dump them directly into college after they graduated from a high school which could not even provide them with honors level courses in core subjects.
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It’s not a year but many schools offer “summer start” to students that need to close the gap on certain subjects and review study skills.
It needs to start before 1st grade. Other kids come in competitive, academically and personally.
But when it comes to elites, where both prep and attributes matter, many continue to under estimate lower SES in general. Imo, a distinction is needed between “ready” vs couldn’t manage an elite, in the first place.
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