how political is grad school?

<p>so I have a friend in grad school, and he seems to spend most of his time worrying about (a) how to word emails in such a way that they impress his advisor (b) labmates in competition with him (c) labmates who deliberately try to make him look bad to his advisor because they are in competition with him, etc. for the record, he looks pretty damn good to his advisor, but he frets about this stuff like every day</p>

<p>and he has to worry about presenting at conferences/writing papers, because apparently in grad school you have to start building your "academic reputation"...what happened to the idea of being a "student?"</p>

<p>is grad school really that political/stressful/etc, or is my friend's experience atypical? because to be honest i'm kind of scared to go to grad school now. i'm totally psyched about working on interesting problems and stuff, but i hate the idea of worrying about where my name is on some author list or how much some professor likes me. it's like you have to publish ten papers while you're in grad school or you're "not a good student"</p>

<p>(oh, and twenty hours of teaching a week?! that's practically a part-time job...seriously, how do you guys manage all the teaching in addition to your research and your classes and your academic reputation? do you guys just graduate later or something?)</p>

<p>Not all labs are like that, and the labs which are like that tend to be like that to an extreme degree. It is often a toxic advisor problem.</p>

<p>I mean, you always have to worry about writing good papers and giving presentations at conferences, but the degree to which you have to worry about it depends on what your career goals are. If you're in a top lab as a grad student and you want to go to a top lab for a postdoc and get a professor position at an R01 university, yes, you have to worry about it. If that's not your bag, you can have plenty of fun doing science and publishing without worrying whether you're first author equal contribution listed first or first author equal contribution listed *second<a href="and%20yes,%20that%20happens">/i</a>.</p>

<p>But ultimately, the degree to which you stress yourself out over these sorts of political considerations is up to you. If you don't want play that game, then pick an advisor who doesn't play them, and choose not to play them yourself.</p>

<p><a href="oh,%20and%20twenty%20hours%20of%20teaching%20a%20week?!%20that's%20practically%20a%20part-time%20job...seriously,%20how%20do%20you%20guys%20manage%20all%20the%20teaching%20in%20addition%20to%20your%20research%20and%20your%20classes%20and%20your%20academic%20reputation?%20do%20you%20guys%20just%20graduate%20later%20or%20something?">quote</a>

[/quote]

Dude, there are 168 hours in the week. If you spend 20 on teaching, there are still 148 to spend on research!</p>

<p>More seriously, at least in my program, when you're teaching, you're usually not taking classes yourself. And you just plan to work in the lab 40ish hours a week that semester rather than your usual.</p>

<p>
[quote]
and he has to worry about presenting at conferences/writing papers, because apparently in grad school you have to start building your "academic reputation"...what happened to the idea of being a "student?"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, the truth is, as a PhD "student, you're not really a student at all, or, at least, you're not after you pass all of your qualifying exams to become a PhD candidate. You are basically a (very) junior faculty member. Hence, you will be subjected to the same political pressures as other faculty members are. See below. </p>

<p>
[quote]
is grad school really that political/stressful/etc, or is my friend's experience atypical? because to be honest i'm kind of scared to go to grad school now. i'm totally psyched about working on interesting problems and stuff, but i hate the idea of worrying about where my name is on some author list or how much some professor likes me. it's like you have to publish ten papers while you're in grad school or you're "not a good student"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, to be honest, if you think that's stressful, just consider how stressful it is to be a new PhD graduate or postdoc who's on the job market trying to place as an assistant prof, or being said assistant prof who is fighting for tenure. At the top schools, the vast majority of incoming assistant profs will not get tenure, which then unsurprisingly spurs a tremendous amount of political jockeying. I know one (former) Harvard assistant prof who said that he far prefers socializing with tenured Harvard faculty - even those from other departments or even completely different universities - rather than assistant profs from his own department, because in the latter situation, the conversation inevitably and quickly degenerates into a squalid whinefest regarding whose crappy paper got published in a top journal and whose top paper got undeservingly rejected, which conference do they need to present at in order to optimally enhance their academic reputation, </p>

<p>...at MIT, on the other hand, only one-third of the men and women on the tenure track will be invited to make their permanent intellectual home at the Institute.</p>

<p>Women</a> and Tenure at the Institute - MIT News Office</p>

<p>*But with a Harvard Ph.D. and three years of teaching experience, he is familiar with the culture of junior faculty. “It’s a research institute. The reality is that’s what they tenure on. It’s definitely demoralizing for junior faculty that there is a 70-80 percent chance that they will be fired,” he says. “Harvard defines its tenure process as getting the best in the world...</p>

<p>Going up for tenure at Harvard is a painful and cruel process. This is according to someone who emerged triumphant. “The whole system is still quite terrible and dangerous,” says professor Alyssa A. Goodman, who received tenure in the Astronomy department in 1999...</p>

<p>Another complaint Goodman shares with junior faculty is that the secrecy of the process and unrealistically high expectations breed departmental strife. The most prominent allegations against the secrecy of the process come from former government professor Peter Berkowitz, who claimed in a suit against Harvard that procedural impropriety and backroom dealmaking derailed his shot at tenure. The case is currently pending in Massachusetts appellate court...*</p>

<p>The</a> Harvard Crimson :: Magazine :: Just the Tenured of Us</p>

<p>*“Over the last 25 years, about 40 percent of the assistant professors who come to Stanford earn tenure... Etchemendy pointed to a lack of internal promotion within Harvard’s tenure system.</p>

<p>“Virtually no assistant professors hired by Harvard end up getting tenure,” he said. “So the only tenured faculty at Harvard are basically those who are hired from the outside as senior faculty.
*</p>

<p>Tenure</a> policy to remain despite debate at Harvard - The Stanford Daily Online</p>

<p>*For some junior professors, coming to Yale is a Faustian bargain.</p>

<p>The scholarly resources are boundless, academic heavyweights fill the faculty offices, and the students are among the world's best. But the downsides, many professors say, are the difficulty of earning tenure at the University and the potentially dire consequences of failing to do so.</p>

<p>Receiving tenure is a scholar's ultimate goal and guarantees academic freedom and job security. But unlike most universities, Yale has a labyrinthine, imperfect and -- in some cases -- infuriating tenure process, professors say.</p>

<p>Critics say departments wield too much power, with senior faculty deciding in concert whether junior professors are worthy of tenure, and the administration only "rubber-stamps" departmental decisions. After nearly a decade of service, many talented juniors leave the University without a job.</p>

<p>For some, leaving Yale means stepping into a professional desert -- they are too old for other junior positions, yet not tenurable at top institutions. Several academics are vexed that a tenure denial can be career ending.</p>

<p>...many professors still grumble about the back-room political logrolling they claim plays a major role in the tenure process at Yale. One professor said senior faculty have been known to make controversial decisions "in the dark of night with lightning speed."</p>

<p>Cathy Trower, a tenure expert from Harvard, said politics are part of tenure decisions at nearly all institutions, not just at top-tier schools like Yale.</p>

<p>"Obviously everyone will tell you there are politics," Trower said. "When I talk to junior faculty, I really encourage them to think as much politically as they do about their research and really being proactive in forging coalitions on campus and being a likeable colleague."</p>

<p>"Because of the obvious unlikelihood of junior faculty at Yale getting tenure, the process of going through it has been crude and unattractive and in some cases just plain rude and disrespectful," the professor, who asked not to be named, said.*</p>

<p>Yale</a> Daily News - Delving into the complex tenure system</p>

<p>Now, to be fair, obviously the life of a PhD student is not as political as that of being a tenure-track assistant prof. Nevertheless, the truth is, the world of academia is highly political, especially at the top schools.</p>

<p>Perhaps it's time that "top" professors stopped applying to schools with poor hiring practices?</p>

<p>Anyway, I think a lot of the politicalness depends on the school and lab you're in. I know in my group pretty much every paper is a joint project between multiple grad students, a guy that's roughly a senior research non-faculty position (he teaches at another school, though), and the professor. We're really big on collaboration and it's not uncommon for someone to break down a good deal of their project to you one afternoon because they're stuck and looking for some insight.</p>

<p>Apparently there used to be some people in the lab that would fight over first author position and stuff like that, but from what I've gathered, nobody in my lab really liked them and they're pretty happy all those types are gone now.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Perhaps it's time that "top" professors stopped applying to schools with poor hiring practices?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, well, good luck in convincing them to stop. </p>

<p>The issue seems to be a game theory-style prisoner's dilemma. Nobody wants to be the one to stop, they just want everybody else to stop so that they have less competition. Let's be honest. If Harvard or MIT or similar caliber school offers you a tenure-track position, you're probably not going to turn it down, even if you know rationally that you will have to survive a gauntlet of politics to even have the chance of actually being promoted to tenure.</p>

<p>168 hours per week? I really like to spend at least some of that asleep.</p>

<p>I have been in a number of different labs and seen the "political" nature of various groups of grad students. There seems to be quite a spectrum with your friend who obsesses about wording in an email to his PI on the far end of it. I have seen grad students spit in incubators or sabotage one another's projects, but I have also seen very collaborative and collegial environments. I think it probably depends less on the nature/involvement of tht PI and maybe more on the personalities of the cohort. Rest assured that people who sabotage and discredit members of their cohort will be killed off by hypertension and ulcers. I like to think that they will not pass on their competitive genes and the world will be a friendlier place for their loss.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If Harvard or MIT or similar caliber school offers you a tenure-track position, you're probably not going to turn it down, even if you know rationally that you will have to survive a gauntlet of politics to even have the chance of actually being promoted to tenure.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'd rather be at a "lesser" school if it meant I got to spend significantly more time on my work and less on politics. But, then again, I'm looking at being a professor out of job satisfaction and not as a way to impress everyone else.</p>

<p>Let's put it this way. Already I've heard from.... just about every professor- may they be advisors or actually teaching my classes- in my first week of grad school:</p>

<p>"You are going to become young scholars. This is about you becoming scholars like these people <em>points to the books/articles on the syllabus</em> They're scholars and you're going to be like them if you put in the work."</p>

<p>Scary, no? :eek: That's how they're going to treat you. The label "student" die when you receive your undergraduate diploma.</p>

<p>

Picky, picky! You should talk with your advisor before taking time off to sleep, unless you happen to have dreams about lab, in which case it's sort of like working. (I have recently had dreams in which 1) a large red transcription factor floated peacefully toward a strand of DNA, 2) I had designed a bunch of PCR primers that all had very low melting temperatures [that one was a nightmare], and 3) I was looking through microarray data and found the perfect candidate gene [woke up from that one very upset because I couldn't remember the gene].)</p>

<p>Hey mollie, I've heard rumors from alumni of MIT of professors liking to try to burn their students out during their grad studies so they wouldn't have competition in the field after they complete. Any truth to them? :p</p>

<p>No, I think they just try to burn them out for the usual reasons -- getting Cell/Nature/Science papers and nice big fat grants. ;)</p>

<p>I don't know a great deal about internal MIT politics, though. As an undergrad, I was pretty oblivious to that sort of thing.</p>