How realistic is this joint concentration?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
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<p>I'm currently a junior in high school and considering colleges. Harvard became my first choice for a variety of reasons, and so I decided to look up the concentrations that I'm interested in, their requirements, classes offered, etc. </p>

<p>The joint concentration system is a bit strange for me, so I'm not sure how much of it I really understand. Would a joint concentration with East Asian Studies (requires 13 half-courses) and Government (requires 6 half-courses as a secondary concentration) be realistic? That would be, assuming I take 4 classes a semester and end up studying abroad for possibly up to a year? They would both require a thesis, and i read something about how for a joint concentration they have to be related? Could someone elaborate on that as well?</p>

<p>Thank you!</p>

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<p>You must decide what your concentration will be by the spring of your sophomore year at Harvard. You are a junior in high school with a ~93% chance of not getting into Harvard. The time to worry about this is not now.</p>

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<p>I have been researching a variety of colleges and I would like to gauge the intensities of majors/minors/concentrations and their requirements for each of them. If one college is more flexible than another, I would like to take that into consideration when applying. I am well aware of the chances of getting into Harvard, especially since it’s a statistic constantly thrown in the faces of those interested in applying.</p>

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<p>I agree with Dwight; you’re putting the cart before the horse. But, that said . . . </p>

<p>Very few students actually get approval for Joint Concentrations because it’s super difficult to accomplish in 4 years of study. With the General Education requirements, Expository Writing and Language requirements, students who do Joint Concentrations do not have room in their schedule for electives or for going abroad. Students working on Joint Concentrations often take 5-6 courses for several semesters and/or go to school during the summer – an exhausting proposition. See: [Academic</a> Requirements Harvard College](<a href=“http://www.college.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k61161&pageid=icb.page284442]Academic”>http://www.college.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k61161&pageid=icb.page284442)</p>

<p>"There are three main parts to a Harvard College education: concentration, general education, and electives. In total, all students must complete 32 half-courses (semester-long courses). For detailed explanations of academic requirements, please consult the Handbook for Students.</p>

<p>Concentration: Students choose their concentration near the end of their third term in residence. There are currently 45 concentrations from which to choose, including several interdisciplinary programs. Most concentrations require between 12-14 half-courses, or about 40-45% of a student’s overall program. See: [Fields</a> of Concentration Handbook for Students 2012-2013](<a href=“HarvardKey - Harvard University Authentication Service”>HarvardKey - Harvard University Authentication Service)</p>

<p>General Education: The new Program in General Education requires that students take 8 half courses in 8 different categories (one of which must also engage substantially with the study of the past). In addition, all students must complete a required course in Expository Writingduring their first year and must fulfill the language requirement before the beginning of the third year. General Education, Expository Writing, and the language requirement combined require 9-11 half-courses, or about 30-35% of a student’s overall program. See: [Homepage</a> Program in General Education](<a href=“http://generaleducation.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do]Homepage”>http://generaleducation.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do)</p>

<p>Electives: The number of elective courses in each student’s program will depend on the choice of concentration, whether a student is pursuing an honors degree, and numerous other factors. Students may choose to use electives to pursue an optional secondary field or aforeign language citation, facilitate study abroad, delve more deeply into advance coursework or research in a field, prepare for graduate school, or pursue a variety of other intellectual interests. Students are encouraged to sample widely and take advantage of the wealth of unique academic opportunities available at Harvard."</p>

<p>Also see: <a href=“http://apo.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k73580&pageid=icb.page392081&pageContentId=icb.pagecontent903441&view=view.do&viewParam_name=faqconc.html#a_icb_pagecontent903441[/url]”>http://apo.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k73580&pageid=icb.page392081&pageContentId=icb.pagecontent903441&view=view.do&viewParam_name=faqconc.html#a_icb_pagecontent903441&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>"Should I do a Secondary Field or a Joint Concentration?
For some students, deciding between a Joint Concentration and a Concentration and a Secondary Field proves to be challenging. Each option will expose you to two fields of study and provide you with guided instruction through a curriculum. However, pursuing a Joint Concentration requires combining the two fields into a coherent plan of study, often demanding a lot of initative on the student’s part. A Secondary Field, on the other hand, does not require the synthesis of the two fields, though some students choose to incorporate some of what they learned in their Secondary Field in a thesis or final project in their primary concentration. If you are interested in either option, it is best to speak with an adviser in each of the departments to discuss what would be optimal for you given your academic interests.</p>

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<p>This isn’t exactly true. I suppose it can be, but it depends on the two concentrations involved. A joint concentration typically doesn’t require you to take more than 1-3 extra classes, which tend to be the tutorials of the “other” concentration. The challenge for joint concentrators is combining the two programs into a coherent field of study, not to mention a thesis that uses both. So some joint concentrations are nearly impossible, like Physics and Near East Studies.</p>

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<p>I’m inclined to agree with DwightEisenhower concerning whether or not joint concentrators can find room to get all the coursework done. My son, currently just a freshman, is currently investigating a joint concentration.</p>

<p>First, his advisors have been very welcoming of his wish to have a joint concentration. In one field, there has been some skepticism as to whether he could actually accomplish the joint concentration, as their degree requirements are extensive and unbendable. However, their attitude is, if you can work it out, go for it. In fact, it was an advisor for this field who suggested some possible ways to develop the thesis for the joint concentration. The other field’s degree requirements are a little more flexible, and based on their consultation, it looks like he may be able to fashion his joint concentration.</p>

<p>Depending on whether he seeks advanced standing, and if he does, how he does it, he may need to take five courses in one or more semesters. Or not. Remember that some of the courses a student takes in each concentration may count toward the general education requirements.</p>

<p>I also don’t think it’s too early for the original poster to think about this. The fact is that some schools are more receptive to double majors (or whatever label a school applies to the idea of majoring in two different fields simultaneously) than others. Princeton told my son to go jump in a lake. Notre Dame was very open, and indeed, lots and lots of kids at ND double major. Hopkins was somewhere between those two extremes.</p>

<p>Harvard is a little fuzzy when discussing the idea with prospective students. When my son visited last spring, the folks in each of the two departments with which he spoke all said, “No problem! No problem!” but didn’t provide any details about the path thereto.</p>

<p>The reality is that it’s not really terribly straightforward. But it’s far from impossible, or even particularly difficult or chancy.</p>

<p>Harvard’s curricular guide even points out which concentrations readily admit of a joint concentration and which concentrations “prohibit” them. I put “prohibit” in italics because upon further inquiry, even the folks who “prohibit” joint concentrations have told my son, “Well, if you show us how you’re going to get it done, and you show us a good thesis topic, and you demonstrate steady progress, we’ll allow it. It’s just really unusual to do with us.”</p>

<p>Gallifrey, I’d suggest that next year, when you’re a senior, you enter into some serious conversations with department advisors at Harvard, even before you find out whether or not you’re accepted, to gauge just how realistic your joint concentration might be. Frankly, the two disciplines look, to my untutored eye, to be highly-compatible. But I’m not a professor at Harvard. ;-)</p>

<p>My son has found the faculty at the school wonderfully approachable, ready to speak, chat and advise. They have exuded an attitude of helpfulness, of desiring to help him succeed, and enthusiasm about his ideas and his dreams. And they’ve also told him what’s what, what’s possible, what’s less possible, and what’s just not going to happen.</p>

<p>But he’s also found that, at least so far, he has to make the first move. And, to a large degree, he has to know the right questions to ask, because these folks often answer the question that’s asked, not necessarily the questions left unasked, but for which answers are vital.</p>

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<p>Regarding Government and East Asian Studies, I had assumed for a thesis I would end up doing something on East Asian government, which is easier to write than say, connecting Physics to Anthropology. Also, it sounds like most people get caught in the language requirement hitch when doing joint concentration, but East Asian studies has language as a part of its requirement.</p>

<p>Thank you very much for your help!</p>

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<p>I completely agree with notjoe about the difficulty of scheduling and the sometimes lack of straightforward discussion of double majors/joint concentrations/dual degrees with faculty and guidance counselors. Remember, their jobs are to make the school look good, be profitable, and retain wealthy/intellectual students in a healthy, low-stress atmosphere before even thinking about what you actually want to pursue. So you can’t approach guidance counselors and faculty with complete confidence that they hold your best interests in mind. And if they do have your interests in mind, it is definitely not at the top of their list as I just mentioned.</p>

<p>I also agree that NOW is definitely the time to figure this stuff out. If you can’t do what you are setting out to do at this school (even if it is the big named Harvard), and instead are manipulated into doing something else more suitable for the staff or guidance counselors, then it isn’t worth your time. Unless you are #1 or 2 in your class and have an exceptional GPA and SAT scores, you are not going to even get in let alone get a good financial aid package of grants and scholarships. So if you are at the top of your class and plan on maintaining that status, you need to factor in your potential financial and loan obligations in to the equation as well. There’s no reason to drop 200k+ on a liberal arts education even if it is from Harvard if A) you can’t be sure they will even let you major in the different concentrations you want to major in and B) if you are at the top of your class, you should be having the Ivy’s compete for you and have them work with you to map out a 4 year plan, with summer classes and study abroad factored in if necessary and/or if it’s something you want to do. You need to know that it’s even possible before you commit to the school. If they aren’t willing to work with you or give you the attention and specifics you are asking for in regards to how the joint concentrations would work for you in your particular circumstances for different hypothetical joint concentrations you may be interested in, I wouldn’t waste my time. That’s what you need to do. You need a plan A, B, and C for how you want to complete this joint degree if that’s what you have your heart set on. Ask them the difficult questions before you get screwed into a program that they told you would work with you but just did that so you would go to school there. Remember, higher education is a business, so don’t be naive when talking to these people. Be straightforward, courteous, but get straight to business. They are going to want you to take a bunch of bs electives that they need bodies to fill the empty classrooms. Don’t let them swindle you into wasting your time taking an elective that has absolutely nothing to do with your concentrations or you have no interest in. that will guarantee you a future line of headaches, boredom, and financial and physical pain. You need to figure out a few strategies for completing your joint concentration in a reasonable time frame; otherwise, you’ll be in school forever. Or, knowing harvard, i
don’t know if they tolerate the 5 year marathon program, haha. They may just kick you to the curb, but this is what you need to find out now, preferably before you even waste your money applying.</p>

<p>I am telling you from personal experience. I have a dual degree, with 3 majors, for my undergrad that I completed in only 4 years. I didn’t go to Harvard and I sometimes had to take 6 classes for several semesters and did take 8 classes in total over 2 different summer stints in school. It wasn’t easy, but it wasn’t impossible like some scare-tactic people on here would like you to believe. If you are smart enough to be at the top of your class to make it financially feasible to get into harvard, you will have no problem with the Harvard course load. I have had many friends and colleagues go to harvard. And let me tell you, they told me that many of my classes and schedules were much harder than theirs. But believe me, the Harvard name on a resume is very valuable compared to other institutions. It’s not about how hard you work. It’s about how smart you work. So if you are very smart, which I’m s assuming you are, stick to your guns and don’t let some of these snooty pretentious people on this forum (not all, just a few) or elsewhere scare you into your future. Take control. Make plans. Meet with the faculty and/or guidance counselors of the various departments you are interested in. tell them what you want to do. Have several plans for completing your intended joint degree that you try to work out on your own before even stepping foot in their offices. Ask them specifics to fill in the gaps of your plans and strategies because not only will these people not completely know how for you to proceed exactly because your joint concentration may be an interdepartmental or inter-school one ( e.g. liberal arts and school of gov for example), they are also very busy individuals that wil not have much time to spend with you. So use this time wisely to help solidify your strategies and maybe pick a few backup joint concentration stategies with different but similar majors you may be interested in if your 3 strategies for your first joint concentration majors don’t work out and you still think harvard has other concentrations you’d still be very much interested in. so instead of near east studies and gov, maybe near east / political science or business or international business or international relations. I’m not familiar with Harvard’s specific concentration/major names, but the point is I’m sure there are many coherent majors/concentrations that are very similar in different departments and schools at harvard that if your first few strategies for completing your #1 joint concentration majors does not seem likely or possible for you to do because of class scheduling, etc, then you could do a joint concentration with anther very similar major or majors.</p>

<p>I’ve fine through this entire process, and for me to pull this off, 3 majors in 2 different schools (same university) in only 4 years took a lot of guile and cunning in my part and wasn’t always straightforward. The guidance counselors had info I needed to complete my plan for my dual degree but weren’t always that helpful whether through their own ignorance of how inter-school dual degrees worked or by trying to pass off new electives and courses they had been told to push/sell to students for whatever reasons. You just have to want to take the initiative to make it all work. And in the end, the only person responsible will be you because no one else will take responsability for it.</p>

<p>Good luck and I wish you the best. You can do it if it’s truly what you want to do.</p>

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<p>^The fact that you wrote such a long post about the need to make detailed plans from the age of seven reveals your unfamiliarity with how such things work at Harvard. It really doesn’t take too much effort to plan out your concentration. People switch them in their junior years. The one exception is the pre-med track, which requires you to do a bit of planning especially if you don’t want to take a year off before med school. And by a bit of planning, I mean just that. A bit. There’s still flexibility. There’s still elective space. </p>

<p>And then there are some specific things you said that range from misinformed to plain wrong:</p>

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<p>Aid at Harvard is not merit-based whatsoever.</p>

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<p>A minority of students pay 200k to attend Harvard. The majority (70%) receive financial aid. </p>

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<p>Goes without saying how bizarre a statement this is.</p>

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<p>There are roughly 1600 students in each class at Harvard. I would be surprised if more than 10 of them knew where/when they were going to study abroad before they even matriculated. If those 10 even exist, their plans probably changed by the time they actually did matriculate. Of course I’m just pulling these numbers out of thin air, but the point is…no.</p>

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<p>Right, probably inadvisable to waste your time with the best schools in the country if they don’t tell you what classes you’ll take in your junior summer before you even get to campus as a freshman. </p>

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<p>Not sure what sort of conspiracy theory you’re going for here, but there are no “programs” at Harvard; there are concentrations that you may change as simply as filling out a single piece of paperwork and walking a half mile or so to the Registrar’s office. </p>

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<p>Not a single word of this is applicable to Harvard, so I’m filing this under the misinformation category. </p>

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<p>I’m not gonna really go through the rest but hopefully posters reading this will get the idea. I don’t doubt that your advice is good advice insofar as it reflects your experience at some non-Harvard school, but by extrapolating to Harvard you are providing misinformation. I’m not trying to be a snob as if to say that Harvard transcends problems in higher education, but the experience at Harvard and its peer schools does not reflect your advice in any way.</p>

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<p>Although it doesn’t take much effort to plan out a concentration, it does take effort and approval for a joint concentration. see: [Veritas:</a> Now Subject to Committee Approval! | Opinion | The Harvard Crimson](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2010/2/5/students-concentration-fields-thesis/]Veritas:”>Veritas: Now Subject to Committee Approval! | Opinion | The Harvard Crimson)</p>

<p>“. . . declaring a joint concentration requires an approval process that is unnecessarily difficult—art history and English as a pairing should be considered as intellectually worthwhile as English alone. The College’s approval process sends the message that studying two fields is inherently more suspect than studying one. Even worse, some fields, such as economics, apparently have no way to integrate with other subject areas—or so the College would have us think.”</p>

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<p>Curious how hard is it to change concentration Junior year and still graduate on time?</p>

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<p>Depends. If some of concentration 1’s classes can count for concentration 2, it’s easier. For example, HEB to OEB or Social Studies to Government. </p>

<p>Or if you’ve used some of your electives on concentration 2, it’s easier. For example, if you’re a history concentrator with an Arabic citation, it wouldn’t be hard to switch to Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations with a history focus.</p>

<p>But if you’re a junior Physics concentrator and you’ve decided to switch to East Asian Studies without having taken an Asian language, it would obviously be difficult. Maybe not impossible but you’d have to use your summer.</p>

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<p>My S just got approval for his joint music-mathematics concentration. While math was quite easily willing to grant approval (the current chair is also a composer so he was very pleased for a proto-composer/mathematician) music demanded that he present a mock schedule for the rest of his time at Harvard (he is a sophomore) and interview with Professor Kelly. My S said it was a real not a pro forma meeting. In the end music approved his request. </p>

<p>His take away message-- make sure you have done your preparation as to how and why before you speak with the various departments. the OP is correct in assuming that some joints are easier to explain and thus obtain than others. But in the usual H way, if you have done your homework developing a rationale/how you can & will fulfill all of the requirements and are passionate the College is willing in the vast majority of cases to go along. BTW He discovered that there is a subtle but important difference between a music and mathematics joint and a mathematics and music joint-- the first is less cumbersome in terms of how to create a joint honor thesis. if you are doing an honors thesis the thesis has to satisfy the requirement of both departments-- which in some cases can be a bit tricky. Again, nothing that can’t be overcome–but requires forethought and explanation to the powers that be.</p>

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<p>etondad,</p>

<p>Thanks for the anecdotal information. I will pass it along to my son as he moves forward with his own joint concentration plans. In what year is your son? Thanks again.</p>

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<p>Something I never quite understood is the fascination with joint concentrations, dual degrees, etc. Frankly, I don’t see what is accomplished that is significantly different from simply majoring in one primary discipline and taking courses in another (as electives). I had several college friends who stayed up late at night their freshman year thinking about how they were going to “distinguish” themselves at college by completing a joint concentration. All of them found other things to worry about as sophomores…and ended up being happier with the increased freedom to take fun elective courses (as students designating a single field of concentration).</p>

<p>My advice to the OP: don’t worry about this now. What a colossal waste of time and energy! You’re only a junior…in high school. Focus on learning a lot, having fun, and getting into a great college. If you end up matriculating at Harvard, take whatever courses you’re interested in. Figure out what field of concentration best aligns with that curriculum. Decide what “label” you’d like on your diploma, and select that field of concentration (major). Be happy.</p>

<p>That being said, there are some natural joint concentrations with “synergy,” e.g., music + math, comp sci + math, physics + math, stats + math. However, from everything that I’ve heard from my friends, joint concentrations don’t really open up any additional doors with respect to jobs or professional schools. So is it really worth the headache of petitioning through the dept. and Undergrad Program Office (for consideration by the Faculty Concentration Committee)?</p>

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<p>^^ U r right as to the hassle … the only reason to do it is to be able to take advantage of the additional support in terms of advisors or access to some seminars that only a concentrator can use. Most students don’t really need that–so the hassle isn’t worth it.</p>

<p>Also, most students joint not because it will have any utility in later life but because they love the fields–for the intrinsic joy of them. I can’t speak about others, but I know that my S doesn’t care much about the diploma or what it says–now he is a sophomore so maybe that will change as he gets further along–but he LOVES pure math and music composition and wants to pursue them as hard as he can while he is at Harvard. How that will play out in the so-called “real world” he hasn’t figured out–and I think he is a smart fellow and all will work out somehow for him in the end. If not there is always working at Starbucks…</p>

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<p>Mostly I took interest in joint concentration instead of one concentration while taking classes of the other discipline because of the thesis requirements of connecting the two. Though I’d likely be able to write the same paper with a singular concentration as well.</p>

<p>What was said earlier, about having to be #1 or #2 in my class to even get in, I have to disagree with you on that. I go to a very rigorous high school from which about 40 students every year are accepted into Ivies. We have access to the graphs that show the GPA and SAT scores of those accepted and that of those rejected, and you may be surprised to learn that many who had perfect or next-to-perfect grades and scores did not get accepted while those with 90-95 GPA’s and 2000-2200 SAT scores did.
Something you may not have realized is that the Ivies are not grade-centered. Also, that the Ivies are certainly not like any other schools. Drawing an entire opinion on the faculty of Harvard based on your experience at whatever school you went to is only relevant if Harvard is the school you went to.</p>