How should I evaluate a Berkeley Engineer?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
1

<p>Hi Again,</p>

<p>I hire engineers in SoCal and have some quick questions for
the general Berkeley crowd. A recent applicant had 2.8GPA
in Engr. How does this compare with his peers? I don't know,
as we have never had a Berkeley candidate before (they usually
want to work in the Bay Area) and I'm quite delighted to have
the application.</p>

<p>For reference, if this were a Caltech grad, an average gpa is
about 3.0, so 2.8 would still indicate a good candidate. But,
at say USC, 3.5 is more the average, especially in the grad-school.</p>

<p>Can anyone here calibrate me on Berkeley grading norms in the
Engr School?</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

2

<p>It is EECS policy to have the average GPA for all lower division and a few upper division courses to be 2.7. The higher level upper division courses can have around a 3.0 average. So just by the numbers I'd say the average EECS student probably has around a 2.9 Technical GPA when they graduate.</p>

3

<p>Hey Roble,</p>

<p>What kind of Engr exactly? The follow link pertains only to EECS:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policies/ugrad.grading.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policies/ugrad.grading.shtml&lt;/a>. According to that link, for EECS, he's average.</p>

4

<p>
[quote]
So just by the numbers I'd say the average EECS student probably has around a 2.9 Technical GPA when they graduate.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, no, that can't be true. It's gotta be higher - for one simple reason. Those who do terribly will never even graduate because they will flunk out. Hence, by flunking out the tail end, you increase the GPA of those who do actually graduate.</p>

5

<p>The interest was more for mech engr applicants. Any thoughts?</p>

<p>I got to tell you, that's some brutal grading guidlines you guys
deal with. Do you all think it's a fair system or do you think
the endeavor to meet a specific target creates arbitrary
distinctions between A/B B/C?</p>

6

<p>@sakky</p>

<p>Well then let me rephrase: </p>

<p>The mean GPA for all EECS students due to EECS classes who were members of the major solely during the time in which the grading standards were as they are now but are not currently in the major will be 2.7 assuming grades were given in accordance to the EECS grading guidelines (<a href="http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policies/ugrad.grading.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policies/ugrad.grading.shtml&lt;/a&gt;) and students take an equal number of lower division prerequisites, lower division courses, upper division prerequisites, and upper division courses. </p>

<p>It seems I have to word everything like a lawyer with you, sakky!</p>

<p>And by the way, the average EECS GPA for someone who was a part of the major when they entered Berkeley but is not anymore (due to graduation, dropping out, switching majors, etc.), will actually be less than 2.9. This is because the "tail end" will drop out or switch majors with a poor GPA, and then in subsequent courses people previously in the middle of the class will occupy the tail end (because the old "tail enders" are gone), lowering their GPAs too. Now because their GPA is lower they might exit the program, causing this effect to continue.</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
Well then let me rephrase: </p>

<p>The mean GPA for all EECS students due to EECS classes who were members of the major solely during the time in which the grading standards were as they are now but are not currently in the major will be 2.7 assuming grades were given in accordance to the EECS grading guidelines (<a href="http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policie....grading.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policie....grading.shtml&lt;/a&gt;) and students take an equal number of lower division prerequisites, lower division courses, upper division prerequisites, and upper division courses.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, no, even that's not correct. According to that very link that you cited, the typical GPA for * lower * division courses is a 2.7. But the GPA for an upper division course is a 2.9. Hence, taking your assumption that people take an equivalent number of lower and upper division courses (which is almost certainly not true - as there are more upper division than lower division requirements), the average would be a 2.8. </p>

<p>
[quote]
It seems I have to word everything like a lawyer with you, sakky!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I believe that precision is important. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And by the way, the average EECS GPA for someone who was a part of the major when they entered Berkeley but is not anymore (due to graduation, dropping out, switching majors, etc.), will actually be less than 2.9.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, we also have to keep in mind that there will be quite a few people who are not in the major, but will take EECS courses anyway. Not everybody who takes EECS courses are actually in the major. Some of them will be from related majors (i.e. other engineering, physics, math) who are using EECS courses to fulfill part of their breadth requirements. For example, a fair number of chemical engineering students will take EECS 143 (which is microchip fabrication, and is quite related to chemical engineering). And then there are those people who are trying to switch into the EECS major.</p>

8

<p>
[quote]
According to that very link that you cited, the typical GPA for lower division courses is a 2.7. But the GPA for an upper division course is a 2.9.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Read it more carefully. Lower division prerequisites should have a 2.5 average and upper division prereqs should have a 2.7 average. These are still lower and upper division courses, respectively, so we ought to take them into consideration.</p>

<p>And regarding people taking more lower than upper division courses. While this might be true for people who are graduating from EECS, like you mentioned there are many people who take a lower division course for unrelated majors like Business, and also many people who simply drop out of EECS. These people end up taking a few lower division courses but no upper division, which is why by raw numbers there are likely more lower division grades than upper division ones. And for your example of Chem Engineers taking EECS143, a prerequisite for that class is EECS40, which of course will be graded quite harshly. Basically I think it would be exceptionally rare that people outside the EECS/CS majors would take more upper division courses than lower division in the area.</p>

<p>Maybe I should reword my response yet again (I thought I had it the second time!): </p>

<p>The mean GPA for all students due to EECS classes who took EECS classes solely during the time in which the grading standards were as they are now but are not currently in the major will be 2.7 assuming grades were given in accordance to the EECS grading guidelines (<a href="http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policie....grading.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policie....grading.shtml&lt;/a&gt;) and in aggregate students take an equal number of lower division prerequisites, lower division courses, upper division prerequisites, and upper division courses.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
Read it more carefully. Lower division prerequisites should have a 2.5 average and upper division prereqs should have a 2.7 average. These are still lower and upper division courses, respectively, so we ought to take them into consideration.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, YOU read it more carefully. Who is talking about just the prereqs. Nobody takes just the prereqs. We are talking about ALL of the courses necessary for the major. </p>

<p>"A typical GPA for courses in the lower division is 2.7.
A typical GPA for courses in the upper division is 2.9."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policies/ugrad.grading.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policies/ugrad.grading.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Now, if the prereqs have lower GPA's than that, then that must mean that the non-prereqs have HIGHER GPA's than that. Basic mathematics. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And for your example of Chem Engineers taking EECS143, a prerequisite for that class is EECS40, which of course will be graded quite harshly.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, I think I should clue you in - almost all Berkeley upper division prereqs are 'soft'. Trust me, NOBODY is going to kick you out of EECS 143 if you never took 40. Heck, they aren't even going to know. The prereqs serve as guidelines about what you should know. Only in rare cases do you actually need to have taken the actual prereq for a course before you can sign up for it. </p>

<p>Think of it this way. EECS 40 is not required in the ChemE major, and doesn't help you. But to complete the materials science and technology option within chemical engineering, EECS 143 is one of the possible electives. How could this be even available as an option if everybody was forced to take EE40? </p>

<p>What actually happens is that Berkeley ChemE's, like most other non-EECS engineers, take EE100, which is basically a version of EE40, but for non-EECS guys. From EE100, you know everything that you need to know to take other upper-division EECS courses. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Basically I think it would be exceptionally rare that people outside the EECS/CS majors would take more upper division courses than lower division in the area

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Wrong - that happens ALL THE TIME. Again, let's use the example of chemical engineers. The ones who are in the electronics processing option will often times take EE130 and 143. Those courses fulfill part of their option. Few of them will EVER have taken lower-division EECS courses, because they're not required for their major, and wouldn't fulfill any requirements if they did take it. </p>

<p>Look at p. 15 of the College of Chemistry announcement and notice the available elective options for the materials science and technology option of ChemE. Also notice on p. 14 that EECS 100 is required of all ChemE's, but EECS40 is not.</p>

<p><a href="http://chemistry.berkeley.edu/ugrad_info/publications/chem_07-08.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://chemistry.berkeley.edu/ugrad_info/publications/chem_07-08.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The upshot is that EVERY SINGLE CHEME has to take EECS100. Yet most ChemE's will not have taken a SINGLE lower-division EECS course. Furthermore, some of the ChemE's will take EE130 and/or 143, and STILL have not taken a single lower-division EECS course. In particular, even if you're still hung up about the notion of prereqs, notice how EE130 has EE 40 or EE100 as a prereq. And trust me, if you can pass EE130, you're ready to take EE143 even if you've never taken EE40. </p>

<p>Let's use another example. How about the Berkeley Materials Science major? Again, if you major in MatSci, and you choose the Electronics Materials emphasis, you have the option of taking EE100, 130, or 143 to fulfill your requirements. Some MatSci students will do that. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.mse.berkeley.edu/undergradcurricula.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mse.berkeley.edu/undergradcurricula.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>How about mechanical engineering? Notice how EECS100 is required, but not any lower-division EECS courses. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.me.berkeley.edu/new/undergrad/revisedCurriculumFlowchart-3-14-07.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.me.berkeley.edu/new/undergrad/revisedCurriculumFlowchart-3-14-07.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I could go on, but I think you see my point. It quite common for non-EECS engineers to take more upper-division EECS courses than lower-division courses. At the very least, many of them are required to take EECS100, but are never required to take any lower-division EECS courses (and hence, never will take them).</p>