If the highly competitive major at UIUC is flooded with similar applicants, then the decision will come down to subjectively graded aspects like essay, extracurriculars, etc…
I wouldn’t call Wisconsin OOS a safety, but if you are admitted early – assuming you can get through the weeder courses on your path to your desired major (UW exams are not easy, generally) – it’s a heck of an ace in the hole.
There are other resources outside of USN that contain better methodology. Use them. Or you could also just do research on all the schools yourself to gain better insight, which is what I did.
@CA94309 Interesting perspective. It’s a bit worrying that the argument for public universities starts with a sentence in need of correction…
…but the argument has some statistics on its side.
While agreeing that the flagships are essential to the requirements of a STEM focused world, it doesn’t necessarily translate into what’s be for **ME/B. Michigan has delivered more in terms of volume, but have they made the most of the talent given them? Have they done the most for humanity? If given the choice of Michigan or CalTech, where would one person have the greatest impact?
To that end, here’s an article that looks at the STEM contributions (including Eng.) on a weighted average basis. Which schools contribute the most per student? https://qz.com/498534/these-25-schools-are-responsible-for-the-greatest-advances-in-science/
While several State U’s make the list (including Mich), based on that article it would be hard to argue that the majority of transformational contributions have historically come from private institutions.
According to wiki, In 2014, there were 1,407 36 ACT’s out of 1,845,787 students. That’s 1 student out of every 1763 that takes the test.
How many applicants do you think they can possibly have with 36 ACTs, and, OMG, what are the people with 35s supposed to do.
This catastrophizing is absurd.
Your daughter’s acceptance also depends on her extra curriculars. It’s not just about her score.
Your D is very qualified for each of the schools listed. Surprisingly some of the more selective schools with engineering may regard her as highly as some of the less selective schools which have a greater reputation for engineering. While they may get better prospects overall they will not necessarily get the top engineering prospects. I will just point out a couple of things. First, apply to the state flagships such as Purdue, UIUC etc before their scholarship deadlines. This is for two reasons, she’ll want the scholarships and schools like Purdue are rolling admissions. What that means is that they consider applications as they come in. When they feel like they have filled up certain majors it becomes VERY difficult to be accepted regardless of her stats. Second, talk with your D about aspects of an engineering program that might be important for her. Might she want to Co-op? Vanderbilt actively discourages co-oping. Is she interested in research? Find out how active a school is in supporting undergraduate research. Does she have interests she wants to pursue outside of her major? How well does the school mesh in those areas? I think she will do great. Regardless where she is accepted and chooses to attend it will be up to her to define what success will look like and determine her own path. Good luck.
Does she care about sports and spirit?
I have to agree with @ClassicRockerDad and @Mahindra points. Different criteria apply at different schools. My son had similar credentials to your daughter (3.97/36, NMF, etc.), and also is studying engineering.
We have family members at CalTech, GATech and Michigan so I will summarize their experiences:
Private vs. Public
You have a great list of driving distance schools. The downside of the big public colleges is that she would have to exert a lot more effort to find research, clubs, etc. that she might like. The upside is that there are a lot more of them, and the clubs and student projects can be truly epic. The sheer number of kids at the public colleges means there will be enough to do almost anything. Size also means that there will be more incubators and entrepreneurial opportunities too.
Private schools are going to have a lot more hand-holding, nicer dorms and food, a bit more individualized attention, and usually fewer TAs. The boutique schools like CalTech are more like a big research lab than a university, and the smaller size means that there are more interdisciplinary projects. You might want to look at something like Rose-Hulman if you want more of a contrast. I’d add Rice to your list , as a great private university with excellent engineering and super-friendly people.
As you tour, pay particular attention to student projects in the engineering school. Expect to see drones, submarines, solar powered everything, nano materials - it’s really quite remarkable. That will give you a good idea of what type of student attends the school.
All of the schools on your list have great facilities.
Admission:
Your daughter will be admitted to UIUC. An in-state student with her stats will never be turned down if they apply in the early period, unless they have some other issues (e.g. behavioral) . I’d get the application in during the first week if you can.
As for the others, I’d expect the vast majority will admit her. She will not lack for choices. My son was only rejected from HPS, as were his cousins with similar stats.
Cost & Merit:
She will be a very good candidate for big merit scholarships especially as a woman in engineering. Make sure you apply for the Cornelius Vanderbilt Scholarship, and check into the other schools too. Michigan has Shipman and Stamps and other engin. school scholarships which would make her cost the same or less than UIUC. Purdue also has incentives for OOS students. USC has NMF discounts if she likes California.
@ClassicRockerDad - There are a lot of students with perfect SATs, perfect SAT II’s, perfect grades. There are 1,500+ valedictorians in Illinois each year. As pointed out by @Mahindra , test scores are probably between 0% and 30% of an admissions decision at any school. At a school like UIUC in one of its majors with world acclaim, not getting accepted is entirely possible. There are dozens of 34’s and 35’s (which puts them in the 98th percentile) that have multiple varsity sports, volunteer work, and are first generation college students.
Show me one post in the entirety of CC for a student who
- applied to UIUC early
- In-state
- Had perfect 36 ACT
- Applied to engineering
and either did not get in or get their first choice major. Just one.
At a large public school they are much more than 0% to 30% of the admissions decision.
@ClassicRockerDad - CC primarily represents boastful parents, so the parents of other prodigies didn’t come back to highlight their embarrassment.
If it’s a guarantee…why the talk of a safety? You can sleep on UIUC. It’s a lock based on CC!
OP here again. Wow, so many excellent and widely varying opinions offered here! Such an eye opener. Thanks so much to everyone who shared their kids’ own experiences.
@TooOld4School your comparison of private vs. public makes great sense, and I really love your optimistic views on admission and merit scholarships, though I can imagine quite a few posters here would disagree with you on those.
@ClassicRockerDad I like most of your analysis on whether UIUC would be a safety. On the other hand, I remember seeing on the UIUC forum this year that at least two posters with 36 ACT, 4.0 gpa, and in-state got deferred in the EA round from CS in engineering. I believe they are both asian males, the most brutally and insanely competitive demographic for engineering. I wonder how much of an advantage for being an asian girl in engineering would be.
So many different opinions and experience shared, I need to recap my train of thoughts as this discussion is kind of going beyond the initial comparison I was seeking. So here is where I am now:
- We definitely need to nail down a good safety early. I think UIUC is very safe, but not 100% lock, especially if daughter decides to go for CS. So would Purdue be a safer one then? We didn't consider Wisconsin since it's really an equivalent to UIUC and thus not safer and likely cost more. Would Case Western be a safety with merit award?
- My simple logic that if she ends up having to go to her safety, then it shouldn't be "go farther and pay more for a lessor school" scenario. That would rule out a lot of the schools some posters suggested.
- Right now the only reach school on her list is MIT. We don't plan to apply to any ivies except for Princeton. We will visit it in September and if she likes it and feels ambitious enough then she can tackle that app for RD. I'm not pushing for or against it. Cornell is too remote for my taste, and the remaining ivies are not strong enough in engineering (compared to UIUC) to warrant paying full fare for. Stanford is perfect is almost every way but D's chance of getting in is too slim. She has no athletic or artistic talents which Stanford seems to favor, plus there is already too big of a pool of fully qualified asian applicants obsessed with Stanford. We don't want to join that lottery.
- Northwestern was high on my list until I found out it offers no merit scholarship. It also admits too big of a share thru ED, leaving the RD admission more erratic. It's a great well rounded school, but not enough to make us commit to ED, so it's not on our list now.
- The match schools are the most troubling for me now. Academically I'd think Michigan, Rice, Vandy, WUSTL, and ND are all matches, but since we aim for merit scholarship, that may make them reaches. I still need to find out more about the strength of engineering programs of the last three private schools when we visit campus.
I must say this forum is an invaluable place to gather info. Very very grateful for everyone’s posts.
what is your budget? where is your limit at which a school is too expensive?
We used Alabama as the super-safety, considering that safety also includes a financial safety. It is close to free for NMF in engineering, something like $7K/yr total and the NMF scholarship is for 5 years. Even if you had a major setback she could cover costs between loans and a summer job.
Make no mistake, your daughter is a URM in engineering regardless of her race. At the top engineering schools, 60-75% of the applicants are male and the schools are all trying to get to a 50/50 ratio. She may not get the big merit packages, but admittance is a lot more likely, especially if she can articulate how much she loves the school when she visited.
We live in Michigan, so the other obvious choice was MSU for a safety, but my son has been completely brainwashed by his Maize & Blue parents to loathe the Green and White, so he refused even to apply. You might consider MSU (which has a good engineering school) and also has good OOS merit.
I’d just like to respectfully disagree with the comment made that RPI is not a safety. RPI will absolutely accept someone with perfect stats (which they emphasize more than other things; in fact, the only reason my D originally applied there was because they didn’t require an essay :)), and especially a girl applying for engineering because they are trying to balance their lopsided m/f ratio (70/30). So for your D, it’s a safety plus she’ll almost certainly get some merit.
FWIW, RPI is ranked higher by USNews than WUSTL, Vandy and ND for undergrad engineering. But I think Rice would be the ideal choice if admitted and affordable.
UIUC is a no brainer. Wish we lived in state. The rest of your list is good too. For Midwest privates, you might want to take a look at Rose Hullman as a safetyand Case Western Reserve (good merit). For state schools, U Minnesota recruits aggressively and offers merit but not as familiar with their program. Miami OH definite safety and OH State both known for merit. Ditto earlier post about USC. Friend headed there with $50k merit/yr.
Be careful with using CWRU as a “safety”. “Level of applicant’s interest” is “important”, according to http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=966 . Presumably, this means that an “overqualified” appearing applicant must do things to make it look like CWRU is not a low choice “safety”. Here is an older thread on the subject: http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1626043-ways-to-show-a-high-level-of-applicants-interest.html
RPI also, according to http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=49 .
This is anecdotal of course, but my D got accepted + merit in 2015 while showing zero interest and did not write an essay/personal statement.
At both, but RPI in particular, demonstrated interest will certainly impact the size of the merit award. My son was a Rensselaer Medalist, but didn’t visit. He got the minimum $60k. He didn’t visit Case either, but was awarded $100k.