Not so sure the OP can count on this–I edited my above to reflect bottom quartile GPA and just checked the neighboring private school (99% to college, slightly lower SAT ranges): the UW gpa for bottom group is 3.6 and under.
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You paid someone for access to a FB group? That sure doesn’t sound right to me! Make sure your credit card isn’t being charged anymore!
Yes, she is a college counselor though. But works in more of a group format. Generally, good advice. Specific to your child, mixed.
Instead of looking at courses in terms of AP/Honors, you can think in terms of adequate preparation for college in each of the core subjects.
Finishing precalculus or calculus might prepare well for a STEM major or taking beginner english composition classes can prepare well for any major and so on … These courses can be regular, honors or AP whatever is available in his school.
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The great thing is that he is enjoying and thriving at his Jesuit school and there are many Jesuit colleges that will be well aware of the education he’s received. My sense is that there is a reason they limit AP classes (My son’s private school has none and has its reasons) and this will be well understood if he chooses to apply to Jesuit schools. His school will also send a profile that lists how many AP classes they offer and how many kids take them (as well as the range of scores) along with his transcript to all the schools he applies to.
It may be just our public school, but I watched a bunch of kids completely stress out about AP classes and then apply to the same schools that my kid without APs applied to. Some of it was that they didn’t want to go too far away and some of it was that they didn’t score well on the AP tests, some were sick of being stressed out and mostly it seemed that Covid really messed up their mental health.
Remember, College Confidential is a highly selective group of students and parents so you are getting a skewed view of the application process. Look at some of the 3.x - 3.x threads to get a more balanced picture. There are great colleges out there for kids that don’t have 4.0’s and 12 APs.
If I could give you any advice for the next few years, it would be to be on top of how many credits he has in each academic area and to really explore and try to figure out what he is interested in. Value experiences over grades. It’s way more important to find the right “fit” than it is to get into the most prestigious school.
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OP doesn’t need to know if her son is in the top, near the top, top adjacent, etc.
She can take her cue from him- if he’s doing well and has time for other things he cares about- and gets exercise and sleep- then he’s where he needs to be right now. If he’s bored and finishes his homework in five minutes- he needs more challenge. If he’s stressed and had to give up playing the drums with his buddies because he doesn’t have time for hobbies right now, then worrying about MORE stress is not the direction to go in!
The Jesuit HS’s in my neck of the woods send kids to places as varied as Fairfield, Rutgers, Marist, Providence, Stonehill, Haverford, U Delaware, Binghamton, Cornell, BC, Georgetown, American, Holy Cross and a bunch of state U’s further afield. (but mostly clustered in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic). The angst I observe is over finances- especially in families with many kids who are in private school. But the schools themselves seem to do a fantastic job cutting down the “angst” over prestige, who is getting in where, who needs more AP’s, etc.
A friend of mine whose kids went through the parochial school system claims it’s because their college counselors ratchet down expectations- so mom and dad want the kid at Notre Dame or Georgetown. The kids profile suggests Providence or Dayton… and voila, a month later, kid’s “first choice” is Providence, kid gets into Providence, everyone is thrilled. She thinks this stinks. I think it’s brilliant! If a kid wants U Penn, but in the history of the HS no kid with his profile was admitted to Penn, isn’t it genius to introduce the kid to the wonders of American or BU?
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This approach is very helpful. This is exactly the ranking info I’d assume would be helpful but am at a point where I need to poll other parents and students - not going to happen. I’m hoping when we meet with the academic counselor in spring for junior year classes and have the sophomore parent nights with the college counselors, the data will become a little more clear.
The limits on the number of honors and AP’s allowed per year at his school is just below average. The maximum would be 3 sophomore year and 4 junior and senior year but ONLY allowed if you also take a free period. So no electives or band/orchestra opportunities. But study habits and bandwidth considering, I don’t know if he’d successfully reach that.
Sophomores took the Pre-ACT previously this month so we’ll have our first data point for testing.
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@Luvpretzels , I completely understand your desire to look ahead. Who wants to end up with regrets because they “did it wrong”? But rather than crafting your kid’s experience into what a college may want, I would recommend encourage your son to use high school to make the best version of himself.
Check in with him to make sure he has as much balance in his schedule as is possible. One of the beauties of your school 's limit on accelerated classes is that if you love math and science, that’s where you want choose AP classes - without feeling obligated to do AP English, Spanish, and US History. If he wants time for sports or music or robotics, he can make it. And here’s the best part – he can choose a college that fits what he’s learned he’s looking for.
We looked at several colleges we knew little about (or had outdated notions of!) at the suggestion of the CC at school. And we were all wowed by the richmess of what all of them offered. They had great faculty, engaged teaching, and tons of opportunities for all kinds of students. We were reminded that top PhD programs graduate tons of talent they dont need on their own staff and they end up all over the place.
What I am saying is that there will be an excellent school for your kid. There’s no need to try to make a kid for any particular school.
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This describes my son who is a senior. He is taking his first AP classes this year. AP English and AP European History.
Your school probably has a college profile that they send to colleges that gives them an idea of where your kid is in relation to his peers. Ask a counselor for it. Some publish it online.
Trust me, there are plenty of schools out there who know your son’s school’s rigor. Best of luck to him.
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@blossom is right on the money when she says to figure out finances first. Getting a good realistic and brutally honest handle on what you can realistically afford for college is the best first step.
It sounds like your son is right where he needs to be otherwise. Don’t worry about numbers of AP classes. Two of my kids took a lot of them. The third one had far fewer AP classes. It’s not much help with admissions. I don’t think they even included AP scores on the common app but did use them for course credit after admission. They all found great fit schools.
How he compares with the rest of his class (rank or percentile)will matter but the guidance counselors can help you get a handle on that information if you ask.
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When we started helping D20 research college and create her primary list - we asked her to think about what she wanted in a college, what her ideal image of a college was. We didn’t ask her to give a list of college names, but rather what kind of campus she thought she wanted: size, states/regions, urban/suburban/rural, etc. What she thought was important in a college: specific academic programs, study abroad options, rah-rah spirit, clubs/activities, etc. How long she was willing to travel, how often she saw wanting to come home, etc.
As she shared her thoughts, we used them to help her find colleges that fit her parameters and, importantly, our budget. College visits helped her refine her list, making her realize some of her criteria totally unimportant while other, new criteria was added after certain visits (both positive and negative visits helped this process immensely).
I agree with @blossom that figuring out your budget is one of the most important steps. If your budget is unlimited - congratulations the world is your oyster, and college choice is limited only by where your child is accepted. If you have a more limited budget, figure it out now.
Our budget was limited, and I knew non-need based merit was D20’s ticket to finding the right, affordable school. D20’s final list consisted of excellent schools that fit her parameters and our budget, all schools I had never heard of before she started her search.
As we’ve been assisting D23 this past year with her college search - we asked the same initial questions, received completely different answers, and shockingly - her final college list was made up of excellent colleges I had never heard of before she started her search, even after going through this process with D20 only three years earlier.
We started putting together S24’s junior year spring break college tour trip a couple months ago. Again, we went through the question process, ran his answers through research tools we’ve become extremely familiar with along side our trusty budget information, handed him the Fiske guide to peruse and well (finally!) I had heard of some of the schools on his list…discovered mostly from reading fantastic threads on CC and my own deep dives into the less well known areas of that trusty Fiske guide. But there are still a few I had never heard of before helping him find schools that match his personal parameters.
All of this is to say - we live in a country which truly does spoil us in the amount of excellent choices we have in higher education. There’s almost no way for most people to have a thorough understanding of how many schools really are out there waiting to be discovered as a good to great match for their child.
The worst thing, in my opinion, is to start a college search/discussion by coming up with a list of college names that have been collated through word of mouth and prestige name recognition or by test score averages on a website or the number of APs you think a student is going to be expected to have. It’s easy enough to do - a student is strong in STEM and you can guarantee friends, family members and possibly even teachers will be asking if they are planning on applying to MIT, Caltech, Georgia Tech, UIUC, Princeton, Stanford, etc.
Fewer people will be asking if Rose Hulman, Olin, WPI, RIT are on that student’s list. But maybe one of those would be a better match for the student in question. We don’t now and may never know if the search starts and stops with names people immediately recognize/already know.
Same goes for a student saying they want to attend a SLAC. Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Bowdoin, Colgate, Davidson, Wake Forest, Denison are easy names to come up with. I mean just look at which schools automatically create links on this site as I type them in my post here.
But also very good are Clark, College of Wooster, Beloit, Earlham, Juniata, Gettysburg, Whitman, University of Puget Sound…and only one of those automatically highlights into a link once typed.
I don’t know who coined the phrase on college confidential, “Love the kid on your couch” but I still think it is one of the most profound pieces of advice given on this board. Having gone through/currently going through this process - that advice helped remind me that the college search is meant to find the right college for each one of my children; each of whom is totally their own person with specific interests, needs and preferences.
Helping them through this process is, in my mind, helping them figure out who they are, supporting their preferences as they are the ones going to school not me, searching for schools matching them and their needs and reminding them that ultimately they are the ones who are going to be dropped off at the school the August/September after graduation…so what Hamish in gym class thinks about the name of one of your colleges isn’t going to matter in about 6-18 months.
Don’t make choices based off Hamish’s comment, or a friend’s idea that the state flagship is high school 2.0, or an idea of how many AP/honors classes other people have taken and what schools they apply to. Bring this process back to your specific child, to their specific needs and wants and try to realize the rest is a lot of noise. The AP classes they take (or don’t take) have almost nothing to do with figuring out great college options. Your child’s parameters are what matters. And your budget.
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Most kids in America graduate with 1-2 APs. What you see on here and Reddit’s chance me or A2C are not the norm. If you are worried about rigor then consider dual enrollment at your local junior college or taking a few classes at a college if your son’s HS will allow and or has arrangements. Summer is a good time to do so. A motivated student can easily knock off 4 classes over two 5 week terms at a community college. However, it is once again not the norm.
I’d say that >80% of colleges do not give a hoot about APs. Why should they? APs make them miss out on tuition $$. The key is to pick schools that are in his range of SAT/ACT/GPA/Price and any other consideration and apply to 6-8 of them.
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However, public schools subsidize most of their students’ tuition, so they are more likely to be generous with credit units for AP scores in order to get students graduated more quickly using the least possible subsidy.
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This advice seems sound to me, and it was how I viewed things before my oldest (S23) started applying for colleges this year. But one of the challenges I have experienced is that schools that are “a good fit for his SAT and GPA” are also schools that seem to emphasize significant rigor.
I mean, in the end, my son is going to go to college somewhere. It will be a fine fit and a fine experience and he will learn the skills he needs to get a decent job.
But, there seem to be very few schools that are actually “a good fit“ < on paper, by the stats > for someone with 95th percentile stats, who doesn’t also have 5+ AP classes.
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There was a big stink a few years back when many of the elite Day and Prep schools announced they were dropping the AP curriculum. Doesn’t seem to have hurt them in the college admissions department!
I think your point is well taken-- but I think adcom’s are looking for evidence that a kid with solid grades and scores has challenged himself/herself. So not a kid “phoning it in” or gunning for an easy A. If in the context of your own HS that means taking the AP version of Bio for a kid who loves bio… then the AP makes sense. If your HS has a great science curriculum and a challenging Bio class which is just called “College Prep”, then presumably your guidance counselor knows how to explain that to adcom’s.
Where did kids like your son end up in the past few years? That’s going to be a great datapoint for you…
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There are lots of schools that are great on paper for kids with 95th percentile stats, who also don’t have 5+ AP classes. They might just not be the schools that child or their parents envision. Those are two different things.
At all the no name/little name recognition schools we’ve ended up visiting - we’ve met professors who got their PhDs at UVA, UChicago, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Michigan, Cal Berkeley, UCLA, NYU, UIUC, and many many other “top” name schools. We’ve been shown the stories/stats of how well students do in terms of grad school placement and/or employment 6 months after graduation (every one of those above 91% - most above 95%). Many of these lesser known schools actually have better than average med school placement (above 50-60% in some of them) than better known schools.
We’ve met students who earned Fulbright scholarships, Boren awards, and who were invited to join Phi Beta Kappa as juniors.
There are really smart, capable students at every school, not just the ‘highly rejective’. And there are amazing professors who get really invested in their students success and learning at every school.
Amazing students aren’t only well served at the most selective/rejective colleges and universities. I wish that fallacy would just die already. It really leads to so much frustration and angst on the part of students and parents.
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Yes! I’m sorry I did not convey this well.
What I was trying to say was for high stats kids, things like College Board’s college search shows almost all schools as either “safety” or “reach,” there are almost no schools that pop up as “match.“ And for those schools that do register as “match“ when we started looking into details on what the admissions office says they look for, as well as exploring on forums like this what background other people have who are applying or have been admitted, rigor pops up as a big deal for those schools and it seems like most kids have a minimum of five and, often, 8+ APs!
I absolutely agree with you that many of the schools that register as “safety“ would be a great place for my son (and most other students) to be. I was trying to communicate that ON PAPER one gets the impression that these students are… overqualified? I know that, in reality, that’s not the case, I was just discussing the challenge of figuring out which schools are actually a good academic fit for a kid with high GPA/SAT and only a few AP courses when you are just looking at the statistics that are published.
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Academic fit isn’t all you should be looking for. There are many characteristics for college choosing. Your student should be making a list of what is important to HIM regarding college. He will find other smart kids at just about every college in this country.
So…look at other things…size, location, weather. AP courses don’t matter as much as you seem to think. There are plenty of kids like yours (and mine) who got college degrees with very few AP courses.
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Wasn’t AP originated through elite prep schools collaborating with elite colleges? Of course, now that AP is widespread, having it is no longer a differentiator between ordinary schools and elite prep schools, so the latter need to claim that their courses and curricula are better than the AP courses commonly found at ordinary schools (and, being well-connected, can get elite colleges to trust them on that).
However, in the context of this thread, it does not look like the student attends such an elite prep school (AP courses appear to be the most rigorous options, unlike at elite prep schools), the student may take fewer than the school imposed limit anyway, and the student is likely not aiming for anything close to an elite-admissions college. In that context, having a solid college-prep course selection in high school, with few or no AP (or any other advanced-level) courses, should be fine for admission to many colleges and readiness for doing college work.
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When we’ve used College Board/Big Futures, we’ve never inputted GPA or SAT scores as part of the criteria for finding schools.
We put in:
Academic majors the child says are ‘maybes’
Location by state(s) & urban/suburban/rural
Size of college wanted
Type of college (4 year, and if a child wanted specialty like HBCU, or Women’s Colleges, etc)
Activities (if they were particularly important)
Each time we’ve run those searches, those parameters have yielded between 50-300 colleges to glance through (depending on the level of specificity).
Usually once we’ve gotten that list, I remove colleges with a graduation rate of less than 70% (this is a completely arbitrary number I’ve come up with…since graduation rates most often correlate to financial ability/resources of students/family/school - I am comfortable with schools that have graduation rates above 70%).
Personally, I also like seeing Pell Grant recipients above 15% at the very least. I want to make sure the schools my children attend don’t only serve the wealthiest students.
The next thing we look at is the diversity on campus. Some of my children have been adamant that diversity is extremely important, some have found that less important. But again, I (arbitrarily) decided any schools with any race/gender over 65% of the school was removed from contention (barring specific interest in an HBCU, PWI or Women’s College).
At this point, we usually have a manageable list and start looking at the schools we have never heard of before that are on the list.
We go to the college websites and start checking out what can be found there. I was surprised by how strong my children’s reactions were to how websites are designed, what information they deemed most important as they research through the website and what stood out to them or not. Some schools were dropped from the list due to not liking the school colors and thinking the school colors were overly represented in the virtual tours and pictures. Some schools dropped from list because the website was poorly arranged and information difficult to find.
But there were schools (unknown going into the process) where we opened the college website and my child(ren) said, “Ooh. Hmmm”. And proceeded to do a deep dive, saying stuff like, “You know I didn’t think of a sea hawk as a mascot but that tour of the sports center with the mascot lifting weights made me laugh and it looks like the people at the school have a pretty great sense of humor!” And, “I could see myself liking the dining options 70-80% each week - that’s good to know”. And, “Oh my gosh, there’s a professor in X department who is doing super interesting research…this school need to go on my list!”
Still hadn’t looked at GPA/Test Scores at this point. Those are literally the last pieces we look at…after looking at the what type of high school course load is the minimum each schools recommends, and what the acceptance rates are. And we look at the SAT/GPA scores less to see any sort of academic fit…those are used solely to figure out if that child is competitive for the non-need based merit aid that is imperative to college selection and affordability.
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That’s a good way to go as long as your grades and test scores work for most colleges. If you wait too long to check them out, you may have a kid falling in love with a school that they don’t have a chance of getting into. My daughter learned about one particular school at a college fair. The rep had her falling in love with it. She came home and told me she had found the perfect school. And then I checked the stats. Sorry dear but there isn’t a chance in the world you are getting in there. Fortunately I caught it fairly early before she had spent too much time on it.
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