How To Determine Your Child's Ability

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>I don't pose this question for myself, as my son is already in the audition process at several schools, but for the upcoming juniors (and below) whose parents are trying to figure out if their child has any hope getting into a music school.</p>

<p>How do you know if your child is good enough to apply to national level conservatories or university music programs?</p>

<p>In our son's case, he had been signing in school choirs since third grade (and as many as he could), but did not take private lessons until he was a freshman in high school. His voice teacher thought he was wonderful and had a great voice, but he is the teacher and to a certain extent we took his high praise with a large grain of salt. He made all-state choir, but about 25% of the kids who try out do (although trying out does make for some self-selection). He entered a vocal competition and did poorly, maybe nerves, maybe not knowing what to expect. His choir directors were of no help and could not give us any direction. I turned to CC more and more, at least to get opinions on various programs.</p>

<p>When it came time to select potential colleges, high academics played a central role, but he sought to combine that with either dual degree programs in music performance at the university or through affiliated conservatories. He had a group of about nine university/conservatories to apply to up to about the middle of October when panic struck and he wasn't sure which music schools he would be able to get into. This caused us to add two more (he wanted three, but we drew the line because of audition costs). Of these universities and conservatories, six wanted pre-screening CDs. We prepared the CDs and sent them off with crossed fingers and having no idea what to expect.</p>

<p>As the pre-screening acceptances began to roll in, some of the concern of whether he could make it nationally began to ease. He was eventually invited to audition in person for all six pre-screens. He has now completed four of the six auditions and has one acceptance already (UMich Music), so some of the tension is off.</p>

<p>It seems as if most of the CC posters are on or near the East Coast, but how do parents residing between the coasts make these choices? There are fewer competitions available outside of the East Coast and the teachers, choir directors (and CC posters in general) seem much more knowledgeable about what it takes to get into a good music program. Maybe it is worth it to apply to the elite summer programs (even if you can't afford to go), just to see if you are accepted. I know that in our case, having our son accepted at both Interlochen and Tanglewood seemed like a validation of his talent (although Tanglewood made him appreciate how many VERY talented kids are out there).</p>

<p>Sorry, this has been a bit of a ramble, but it seems like the time of year when at least juniors are (or should be) thinking about music schools. How can we help them make intelligent choices for reach, match and safety schools when it comes to talent?</p>

<p>Hat</p>

2

<p>I feel like making these decisions for a range of schools for a student musician is not well-supported in public school. Our guidance department was quite useless. Maybe not every school is as clueless as ours. Having our son at MSM's precollege was helpful because his private teacher there has seen kids through the process before. But, really, it was up to ME to do research, talk to schools, other parents, and read the wealth of information here. I am on the fence about the value of the "All-State" performance opportunities. I have been flabbergasted, even, by the outright political nature of some of the youth performance groups. It really did seem like they wanted to know what you could do for them more than how talented your child was. But, this is really just my general take on it--having seen my son through only one audition for one of those.</p>

<p>Bottom line: I wouldn't have known how to gauge his level from what outside groups he was able to get into--having competent teachers at a Conservatory precollege was what did it for us. Unless the parent is a musician, I don't know how else to do it except through professionals who know your child. And we even had to screw up our courage to ask bluntly of one of his teachers: does he have what it takes? That was hard for me to do, but maybe not so for others!</p>

<p>And you have to look at your child's passion for his music. Does he eat, sleep, breathe it? Mine does--so I knew in my bones that he wanted to be surrounded by the best players and teachers if he could achieve it. So, there was no question about supporting his desire to try.</p>

3

<p>Rule #1 (all together, now): When it comes to auditioned programs, you cannot assume that any school will be a safety on the basis of talent. The judgments are somewhat subjective, and both the number of open slots and the level of the competition can vary quite a bit from year to year at any given school. It is very hard for a performance major to structure schools into reach/match/safety when there are so many unknowns.</p>

<p>There are several strategies that have been reported here on CC to help deal with this. Some reason that they will only apply to a limited number of top music programs and, if they do not get in, they will do something else. This can be taking a gap year, applying to schools that do not require an audition, or majoring in something other than music.</p>

<p>Another strategy is to apply to a wide range of schools, ranging from the very top to a few lesser-known programs that have a decent teacher for the instrument or voice part of choice. A variation on this is to audition early at one or more schools that have rolling admissions or a non-binding EA plan. If an acceptance is gained on that basis, it may be possible to withdraw applications at some of the other schools to keep the auditions down to a reasonable number.</p>

<p>Some take private lessons while in high school with the teacher at the intended college and hope to parlay that into an unofficial early decision.</p>

<p>Assessing talent while in the high school years basically requires getting the student into contact with people who will be making the actual decisions in a few years, or with teachers who have recently had students accepted into good music schools. That can be done via single consultations, private lessons, attendance at summer camps or workshops, competitions, top honors ensembles, really good youth symphonies or choruses, and pre-college programs to name a few.</p>

<p>Even as a musician, I would not trust my own judgment where my son or daughter is concerned. It is simply too hard to make a clear, objective decision in that case.</p>

4

<p>I agree pretty much what Jazzmom said about the passion. We live in a mid-sized midwestern city that has a huge arts climate. So we are fortunate to have available private teachers who could really teach my S properly (we didn't start him wih private lessons untill HS) so we were able to get some feedback from them to help him decide if he should pursue this in college.</p>

<p>I think that pre college and/or summer programs are probably one of the most valuable things a student can do, getting some advanced training and seeing how you stack up with the "talent pool". My S did not do a summer program, I didn't even know they existed untill I started coming to CC. </p>

<p>Which brings me to HS GCs. At his HS, they knew he was a performing kid, no one ever suggested he look into a summer program. As far as help with college search and what it takes to prepare for auditions, etc. Not much. Basically I talked with a few other parents, who were mostly as confused as I was, but got a little information here and there and began to research on the internet, which is where I found CC (just in time!). </p>

<p>As far as how did we know if he was "good enough" we didn't. We thought he was pretty good, but on a national level, we really didn't know for sure, how can most of us really know?(although he did particapate in the NFAA program and did well), For all we knew it was a crap shoot. Even now that he's in a good program, how do we know if he'll have a career? We don't. We know that most of the students in these programs will never see a major stage, will he? Who knows. But he is receiving a good education. How many people have degrees in things like history or english that aren't historians or english experts, most of these people work in other fields, I think the same thing can happen with a music degree. I think alot of families go through the same thing.</p>

5

<p>As I have said before, the best advice I have gotten from people on this board is to get a professional opinion of your child's talent in a national pool. We started thinking about this when S was a sophomore, and had no way of assessing his ability level; he was a big fish in a small pond, so what did that tell us?</p>

<p>As a result of practice lessons, camps and pre-college music experiences, we have gone into the audition process feeling that at least he is well in the running. He passed all of his prescreenings, and has completed three of seven auditions. </p>

<p>While politics and the vagaries of the whole process can affect the outcome, and it is still nerve wracking, at least knowing that you or your child is at the appropriate level is a good thing.</p>

6

<p>Hat, a great post. A couple of more thoughts:</p>

<p>Some of the best means of guaging talent (and growth potential) comes from professional musicians or vocalists. These can be youth/school orchestra, church choir directors, local/regional symphony artists. Parents of high level kids within these groups can also be an asset, they should be part of your network. A few have been there before with an older child, and know a few of the ropes, contacts, teachers.</p>

<p>Personally, we found our knowledge began to increase exponentially as we got to know the parents of young musicians playing at a similar level to ours. The kids tended to gravitate musically, and it became natural to be running into the same people event after event. What started as small talk quickly became "pick their brain" sessions.</p>

<p>A good teacher, especially a private instructor, should give you an honest assessment of strengths, weaknesses, and growth potential. Be clear and say you want no sugarcoating, and most will cooperate. Ask as well if they know peers willing to assess the student through a sample lesson or two. Expect to pay for that service, but its cheaper than auditioning and finding out that the talent just isn't there.</p>

<p>Applying to high level competitive programs is a great idea, even just to judge ability against a national base. </p>

<p>jazzzymom mentions passion. I agree. If there's an all consuming interest, its usually worth pursuing.</p>

7

<p>In response to jazzzmomm, my daughter must have been through twenty to thirty all-area, subregional, all-state and regional honors ensemble auditions in total. Double bass players can be in both orchestra and band, and the auditions are often separate for the two, plus ninth graders can audition both at the junior high and senior high level in our state, so it seemed like we were members of the audition-of-the-month club throughout her high school years. In retrospect, it was good preparation for college auditions to go through that process so frequently.</p>

<p>I agree that the judging can sometimes seem less than fair. That may mean that some students who deserve to get in are disappointed but, for those who do manage to get in, the opportunity to work with professional musicians and to play at top venues can still be valuable. A firsthand look at the political nature of some auditions can be frustrating, particularly for parents who expect better of the school system, but that is the reality of life in the music world from there right on up to the top. As the lottery people say, "you have to be in it to win it."</p>

8

<p>For high school singers: NATS (National Association of Teachers of Singing) competitions really are helpful. To participate the singer must study with a member. In most areas there are two auditions/competitions a year, district or chapter and regional. In some places you must place at the district auditions to be eligible to enter regionals. In others, each teacher may only be allowed to enter a fixed number of singers. In all cases, the teacher must participate in the conference auditions (as a judge), or the singer's application will not be accepted. At the audition, critiques will be written by three experienced judges who will also score the singers, and these will be given to the singer before subsequent rounds. Repertory is prescribed by category, 3-5 selections. Depending on the type of audition competition, there may be as many as three rounds over three days, and the finals will be before the entire regional organization. It is a super experience. Singers compete only against others their age or year in school and for classical singers (there are usually separate musical theater categories), they only compete with other males or females. It provides excellent feedback on the potential of the singer.</p>

9

<p>I'm not a parent or a counselor, but I've had to go through this exact issue myself, so I'd like to add my own experience.</p>

<p>I’ve always been a ‘good’ musician, but I never felt I was a ‘great’ one. While I’ve been first in all-county, all-region, etc. bands and orchestras (I play clarinet), I’ve never made all-state. I’ve participated in one competition, but I didn’t place.
My teacher has been a great support over the years and I’m very grateful to her. She’s a young professional musician in the President’s Own, with several very talented students, including two that are younger than me and have beaten me in auditions before.
For all these reasons, I felt that while I was good in my school and my area, I might not have what it took to really get out there and become a professional performer. However, I do have aspirations, and I do work hard, so I decided to try anyway.</p>

<pre><code>What really helped me gauge my talent were the lessons with faculty. I started visiting schools junior year and since I had no commitments at that point, I felt it wasn’t being too obnoxious to ask the professor at the end of the lesson, “Is this school in my range?” When I got a very definite YES, or even a neutral sort of ‘maybe, if you keep working hard’-type answer, I considered the school to be in my range. Professors don’t tell everyone to audition for their schools – so if someone suggested I should, I took it as a positive indicator.

Another talent-meter for me was my summer programs. Those have been indispensable resources, not only for what I learned, but for letting me see what was ‘really’ out there. I never went to Brevard, Interlochen, or the other big-name festivals. But I went to some lesser-known programs that still attracted talent, and I was able to break out of my community, where I’m considered very able, and see if I was still considered able compared to people from all over the country. One good example from this was at my camp this summer (Eastman Music Horizons). I became friends with the former first chair of the New York all-state band (in her junior year!) and realized we were working on the same solo repertoire and had the same practicing habits, etc. That was a good indicator for me as well.

The happy ending to all this is that it seems I was right – you don’t need pre-college training from age 4 at a conservatory to make it into a good college. I observed myself and the musicians around me and tried to make realistic decisions – and it worked. I just received my first acceptance (to IU Jacobs) about two weeks ago. :)
</code></pre>

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<p>Hello, as the head of admissions and several performing arts schools, students must prepare for auditions and do workshops before the big day. Going in cold is like going into SAT's without preparation...</p>

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<p>What do you mean by CC?</p>

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<p>Colllege Confidential....where we are right now.</p>

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<p>ArtsEdge, I don't think anyone posting here would go into an audition cold--we were talking about knowing what level of Conservatory or Music Program is reasonable to target, and maybe how to prepare to aim high.</p>

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<p>I would like to add that SOMETIMES if you are not "in" the music community the people that are, will try to keep you out, especially if they have children that are competing against your child. This has happened to us with kids that are not even SINGERS! It took a lot of determination on my part to basically "force" my D to believe in herself and her talent after a few of these people got through with her. It took two voice teachers who were not supportive of my D for me to realize the problem. She had a bad experience at a competition and stopped singing for 4 months. She believed that she was not talented. I am not a musician but I am an avid listener and I know what I like to listen to. You can't believe the frustration of hearing the most gorgeous sound you have ever heard in your life (ok, I might be biased because she is my child :) ) and then hearing, "Well, I don't know mom, so and so doesn't seem to think so."<br>
I kept pushing and finally got her to go to a lesson with the highest rated voice teacher in our area. In 45 min that teacher solved my D's very minor breathing problem and told my D that she would go far, if that is what she wanted. My D had the courage to apply and was accepted to several music summer programs and ended up attending BUTI. There, she was repeatedly told that she was very talented and that her voice was beautiful.</p>

<p>She has been accepted into two amazing music schools and is auditioning for two more. Her voice improves at EVERY Lesson. Her self-confidence is up and she is already considering graduate school for voice. She has auditioned and gotten roles in local Opera. NONE of this would have happened if we had tried to follow the advice we received (or didn't receive) from her previous teachers. We are not part of the "group" in our town and I am sure that is what made things more difficult. D was seen as competition instead of one of their own. The straw the broke the camels back for me was when my D was waiting for a lesson and heard the voice teacher say to another student "Oh don't worry we can go over our time,it is only _____ . My advice, trust your intuition and make sure that you get reliable information. I don't know if my daughter will make a career of singing . But what I do know is that she never would have had a chance if I had not believed in her. I cringe inside when I think of all the other kids who might have been given a chance to succeed but didn't have someone who had the means and the drive to help them see it through. Most teenagers are not going to go through all of this on their own. We know there is a tough road ahead, but at least she has the opportunity to be on that road!</p>

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<p>Singermom, it sounds like your family has had unfortunate experiences with very unprofessional folks, and that is a shame. COmpetition is important...it tests us, challenges us, lets us know how we stack up in the real world. Everyone is short-changed if it is disregarded. There are no guarantees for singers (or any other musician), and it is a rough road. It requires obsessive dedication, and even then the odds are very slim of any lifelihood success. Good luck to your daughter. Lorelei</p>

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<p>Dear Singermom1,</p>

<p>Your story is frightening. I have heard of violin studios being that cutthroat (and more), but I figure I never hear <em>all</em> sides, so who knows....but the older I get, the less I think that it's all just paranoid fantasizing that accounts for such stories.</p>

<p>I hope your daughter's ongoing success in auditions is some comfort and satisfaction against such teachers and competitors for you both -- I mean beyond your well-deserved pride in her.</p>

<p>It does seem like it's more of an issue with certain instruments/voices: violin, flute and sopranos in particular. Makes me glad none of my kids happen to play those instruments, I guess.</p>

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<p>Thanks Lorelei!</p>

<p>I should clarify the the bad experience at the competition did not have anything to do with politics but was because of my D's breathing difficulties. That would not have been a problem if D had the right teacher to begin with, (this is where being a musical parent would have helped) She was not getting any support from the "professionals" in her life and could have given up singing all together not knowing this was a fixable problem. The competition that I am refering to is the whole, "whose musical child is the most talented in the town baloney."</p>

<p>We had a similar experience with D2 when she won a spelling bee over the child that was "expected" to win. Everyone was mad at us!</p>

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<p>Unfortunately "mad" and "disappointed" can manifest themselves in strikingly similar ways. We all have a protective instinct toward our own, those who are our offspring as well as those in whom we are invested. Perhaps it was the lack of acumen of those other parents and teachers in assessing your daughter's talent which was the real problem.....they did not know enough to recognize what was possible with good instruction. The ONLY thing which really matters is a good voice teacher, I repeat again and again.</p>

19

<p>We live in Madison, WI, a place that has turned out to be very supportive of its young classical musicians. What we found very helpful was consultation with the UW faculty in the music dept. My son would occassionally have lessons with a couple of the teachers there even though they weren't able to take him as a full time student. During his junior year, I called one of them who knew my son's playing quite well and asked him for a frank appraisal. He was very helpful. Not only did he assess his ability for us, he has some suggestions for schools and teachers that he should consider. </p>

<p>I think that this approach can be helpful for others as well. If you have a local university, try and establish a relationship with a faculty member there, even if you child does not study with them. It can be very helpful in the long run.</p>

<p>Ofcourse, this was only one of the things we did. He also entered competitions and attended competitive summer programs. All of these activities helped us to gain an understanding of where he fit in the greater scheme of things.</p>

20

<p>The teacher that was able to evaluate my D is a Professor.<br>
I think that Lorelei may be right in that the other teachers did not know enough to recognize her potential.</p>