<p>singermom1: your post had me cheering so i signed up to post. </p>
<p>congratulations on the acceptances to ann arbor and indiana. you should have no doubts at this point that you were right. i hope you are now past the point of having to fight for the right to a decent musical education since you have received this validation. i have seen this same scenario unfold not only in the entrenched musical elite of a small town but also at the university school of music level. so always be vigilant, and bravo to you and your daughter for persevering.</p>
<p>Well, Lorelei is so right that the teacher is so very impt. Our S started in 9th grade with his first voice teacher after just doing his middle school choir for three years and church children's choir for four years. The first teacher was a good friend who helped get him over some stumbling blocks that helped quite a lot with All State Choir auditions at the high school level, but after two years she had to quit teaching for personal reasons.</p>
<p>For various reasons it took a year to find S's current teacher, a man (no gender arguments here, just sayin'). The new teacher is a godsend. Kind of like finding a pair of shoes that fit so great you didn't realize your old shoes didn't fit until you get the new ones!</p>
<p>Well, S is so immersed in his choir world that he wants to study choral conducting and teach, so he's auditioning for music ed. Which is great, to be sure. BUT, the current teacher told me in a parent conference that he wished he'd had S in his studio since 9th grade, because he did not get the training he should have had with the other teacher. Something about phrasing, and a couple other things I don't understand. Apparently, the current teacher thinks if S was trying to do straight vocal performance or opera, he might not pass the audition, but he should be fine for music ed. The current teacher says S learns really quick and has a great ear, and thinks if he'd had S for 4 years instead of just one, that S could pass any audition anywhere.</p>
<p>So, here we are. Sometimes I guess we find out about our kid's talent too late (?) to do anything about it. Or maybe we actually do the right thing stumbling in the dark, because our S doesn't want to be the star on the stage, but the great teacher guiding the classroom (at least that's what he told my mother!)</p>
<p>It depends on the discipline in music. There are singers having classical careers who did not take up voice study until into their 20's. I know a fellow who did the DMA with a very well known cello teacher who did not take up the cello until the age of 20, but he played lots of other stringed instruments already. </p>
<p>Generally speaking, most instruments require so many years to get the technique and repertory mastered that if a player does not start very young, there is not enough time to become great....and there is the advantage of the responsiveness of youth. </p>
<p>However, anyone can learn and get better. If success is measured by personal goals, it is never too late.</p>
<p>as far as wondering how "good" your child's musical ability is....here on the east coast, at least, there are many avenues for determining this. both my kids were competitve, one in an instrument and one vocal. they were in all the competitve programs/groups in high school, auditioned/performed in our "Regionals" and "States", competed within the community, joined youth orchestras by audition only, etc. they had numerous private teachers, as we were encouraged to change upward as their abilities increased. hope this helps.</p>
<p>The problem I see in assessing ability is when students are looking at the very top schools. Making the all state orchestra or very good youth orchestra does not mean you are going to be good enough to audition into a top-notch conservatory program. Without an objective outside appraisal it can be very difficult to know what level to shoot for.</p>
<p>Well, I don't know what you have to lose besides some time and money if you shoot for the top, and an audition at a top school can double as your outside appraisal. Who better to weigh in than the faculty at a top-tier conservatory? I say go for it and let the chips fall where they may. You might surprise a few people which is always fun.</p>
<p>It's important in music to do as well as you can from the outset. It really does matter where you did undergrad when it comes to applying for grad school. You need something concrete on your resume to get your foot in the door at the top schools. I'm sure that's a controversial statement but I do think it's realistic.</p>
<p>Not so much controversial as puzzling. If you mean by "something concrete" that a musician has played with a youth symphony, done a concerto, won a contest, while those things are nice and part of gaining experience, they still do nothing for the admission. All that matters is the audition. Every applied music faculty considers that they are the only ones who can judge who is admissable and who is not, and they will judge based on talent and ability. Sure, bad recommendations can ruin an appication, regardless of the audition, but nothing overcomes the audition.</p>
<p>So my D auditioned for a music ed program as a singer, and she must have done well, because after the audition the faculty asked why she was not applying as a vocal performance major. Can we call admissions and change the program she is applying for? Can we take one professor's comments that seriously? Should we call him up and talk to him about it before doing anything else? What is considered intrusive and what is just doing your job to figure out how your child stands re ability?</p>
<p>The course work for both majors is probably the same the first semester. Look at the difference in the curriculums. You can e-mail the head of the voice area and ask what the protocol would be for her to change to vocal performance. They will have listened to her differently as a music education vocalist than they would have for vocal performance. She could also ask about doing a double major, a five year program usually, to achieve both a BM and a BME. The vocal performance degree qualifies a singer to do nothing, just has more emphasis on languages and pure voice work, plus there are recital requirements. If she would want to go to graduate school in vocal performance, she MUST have done junior (usually half) and senior (full) recitals. Some schools do not guarantee lessons beyond the junior year to music education majors. Additionally, at some schools vocal performance majors have first "dibbies" on spots in professor's studios, even if it means someone else gets kicked out. So ask all the questions to sort out these details. Good luck. Lorelei</p>
<p>singersmom, that's a tough question. Does her heart lie in performance or teaching? What does she see herself doing long term? Does she have the talent, drive, perserverance and temperment to try and make it in an extremely competitive performance field?</p>
<p>We've kind of been there, done that.</p>
<p>My son started as a double major (viola performance/music ed). Performance is his first love, and it appears that he may have what what it takes to succeed and make a living from it. Wife and I steered him to the music ed as a fall back position, and he truly enjoys teaching. Yet as he neared the end of his undergrad schooling, he realized that performance is his first love, and while he will always teach throughout his career, he dropped the ed portion of the program (student teaching and a few credits short of completion) and graduated with "just" a performance degree and a very heavy music ed minor. We did not argue or try and dissuade him. He can always complete his music ed degree (or get a masters) at a latter point in time. His current plan is grad school for performance with a chamber music concentration.</p>
<p>A few points: does this school offer a vocal performance major and how do the studio/ensemble/recital requirements differ for the two degrees? Can she possibly do a double major in performance/ed? A number of schools do have this option. Do you have other professional assessments besides this one professor who feels d has what it takes as a performance major?</p>
<p>I think a call to him and a frank discussion (including specifics) might be the best plan.</p>
<p>A top tier conservatory will have scores of applicants for perhaps a few or even one opening at the graduate level. Many of those applicants will be of approximately equal ability. So is where or with whom someone studied previously not going to figure into the decision at all? I don't think so. I didn't say it is what gets you accepted, but it supports your application so it behooves you to take that into consideration when applying for your first degree. Take it or leave it.</p>
<p>I think you may have misunderstood, because I said the resume matters with regard to grad school, not whether playing in a youth symphony helps your undergraduate application.</p>
<p>I do agree that having the best teacher to advance your technique, inspire you, and develp a mature musical and performance style are crucially important. However, it is what the musician does in that audition when all by her/himself that will cause acceptance or rejection.</p>
<p>"So is where or with whom someone studied previously not going to figure into the decision at all?" No, it is not. I know a student who was denied a Juilliard audition based on prescreen, and several reknown teachers (including a Juilliard graduate and a teacher who joined the Juilliard faculty the next year) who had worked with and taught this musician called and wrote letters. A reconsideration was granted, a new CD was submitted, and the inperson audition was still denied. These important teachers could not even affect the prescreen, much less the admission. </p>
<p>My advice remains, find the best teacher no matter where they teach, get experience in ensembles (if you are an instrumentalist) with superior players, develop your "stage legs" (if you are a singer), get comfortable by doing lots of well prepared performing, and be the best YOU can be, and you will succeed appropriately. Good luck! Lorelei</p>
<p>Oh dear, well I'm trying to explain that the hypothetical people I am talking about have already passed their auditions with flying colors, but there are a hundred of them and one opening. I guess they just flip a coin.</p>
<p>At the top level programs with few openings, most schools will weed out grad, GPD, AD and doctoral applicants through a prescreen submission, as do most if not all the major and second tier orchestras in competition for chairs.</p>
<p>If you don't make the prescreen cut, it's highly unlikely you will get to the live audition phase. Yes, in certain instances, the "noted" teacher/instructor tree may aid in getting a prescreen reconsidered, and in rarer cases a favor may be called and an audition granted.</p>
<p>In even rarer cases, a student may be accepted into a particular program for reasons other than merit.</p>
<p>It can work in reverse as well, as Master Teacher A will never consider teaching a student of rival Master Teacher B, no matter the quality of the prescreen, audition, or undergrad background/resume.</p>
<p>Yes, it happens. But not in the vast majority of cases.</p>
<p>Again, the best way to avoid this is to do your homework and research thoroughly.</p>
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<p>For what it's worth, I'll throw in what we were told.</p>
<p>S's pre-college violin teacher has over 30 years of teaching experience at a major stand alone conservatory and major university music department competitive for both undergrad and grad admissions. S's teacher told us that in all those years of teaching and hearing auditions, the auditioning faculty had never reviewed student resumes or recommendations. All that was left to the Music Admissions Dept. It was assumed that Admissions reviewed for "red flags" which would be brought to the attention of faculty. The faculty, based on the audition, "picked" those students they wanted admitted. </p>
<p>Caveat: The violin department/faculty may not be representative of all departments, i.e. voice or wind faculties may operate differently. Also, different schools may operate very differently.</p>
<p>So how do they pick that one person out of the hundred, which after the prescreen is winnowed down to 15? Some of it is who loses, who makes the unforgiveable, never to be repeated mistakes. Intonation problems are fatal, no matter how glorious the sound and keen the technique. After that, it is the intangibles of talent, inspiration, soul....something which cannot be taught, raw appeal. </p>
<p>Of course if you are talking about singers, some voice types do not have to present quite a perfectly as others, and the line is much shorter. Classes of admitted students will be distributed across the voice types, so that the operas can be cast. The same distribution principles apply for instrumentalists, based on orchestra needs, i.e. far more violinists than cellists or flautists will be accepted.</p>
<p>L Fortissimo states: "Well, I don't know what you have to lose besides some time and money if you shoot for the top, and an audition at a top school can double as your outside appraisal. Who better to weigh in than the faculty at a top-tier conservatory? I say go for it and let the chips fall where they may. You might surprise a few people which is always fun."</p>
<p>I don't have a problem with students shooting for the top. However, I have seen a number of students who think they are much better than they are. They and/or their parents believe they are a shoo-in at major conservatories. It is the same attitude that often leads students to apply to Ivy League schools even though they are not even in the ballpark. This often leads to some real disappointment. All students, even the best, should be aware of how competitive conservatory admissions are. Having a good idea of one's abilities can help students to choose the most appropriate schools to apply to. Yes, prescreening deals with some of this, but not all instruments are prescreened.</p>