How to explore engineering programs?

Parents Forum
1

<p>Now that we are starting the college search for son #2, I'm concerned because we have NO IDEA how you investigate engineering programs. </p>

<p>We're hearing a lot about co-ops, internships, hands-on programs, etc. What should we be looking for? What questions should we be asking? Is it unrealistic to be looking for small classes? </p>

<p>What differentiates highly ranked programs like Univ Michigan from lower ranked programs like U Delaware (things that would matter to an undergrad, that is)? </p>

<p>Lots of questions. Don't know where to start. </p>

<p>Thanks a ton for any help! (I really liked the LAC search MUCH better! ;) )</p>

2

<p>Weenie,</p>

<p>You will appreciate the job search at the engineering school much better! ;-) It looks like you and I are doing our searches in reverse, S2 wants to go to and Arts & Sciences schools unlike his older engineering school brother.</p>

<p>Here is what we looked for:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Resources. Check the amount of research dollars that a schools receives in the Graduate Schools edition of US News. This is usually a sign of available internships on campus, though not always in year 1 of college</p></li>
<li><p>Resources 2. Does the schools have the engineering program that your student in which your student is interested. Some engineering schools are small, i.e. 4-6 specialties. Others have a specialty found at no other school, i.e. Operations Research, Financial Engineering (Princeton). This is where a school like UMichigan shines . . . they have an earthquake simulator.</p></li>
<li><p>Coop or summer internships. Schools like Northeastern excel in coop education. Often the students receive job offers from their coop employers.</p></li>
<li><p>Practical vs Theoretical education. Most engineering students are more comfortable with the practical aspects of engineering. For example, some schools provide engineering oriented math classes that provide the formulas that you need to know. This is distinguished from the actual math programs that look for proofs about the math.</p></li>
<li><p>Smaller classes are nice but engineering programs are usually fairly prescribed by the accrediting bodies, ABET (I think). Often the larger schools have large classes the first year or 2. Some schools will allow you to skip to the smaller classes with enough AP Credit. The other side of this answer goes back to the resources, small classes imply less large scale resources, i.e. earthquake simulator, because they are quite expensive.</p></li>
<li><p>Overall fit. At the end of the day my son opted for an engineering school within a larger school in case he changed his mind. Other students know exactly what they want and would be better served by an engineering only school, i.e. Olin School of engineering.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>I think you can generate a number questions from these above areas. Good luck in your efforts!</p>

3

<p>Good question & worthy of time & effort. Our 16-yr son (first collegebound kid) is brillant in math so we wondered if engineering might be a good fit. He had no clue about majors/careers/etc. (Lots of engineers in the family but dad/mom are both attorneys.) We found a week long intro summer program at U of I and Purdue, which explored all the various fields on a fun level. He applied to both but chose U of I. In the end, he found he really did not want to study this major but chose something else! What a reasonable investment in learning what not to major in! It also taught him to think more about his likes and dislikes and not just on a hs form. So explore a bit & try new things now before the apps go out!</p>

4

<p>If your S truly wants to major in Engineering, look for schools that have the majority of students majoring in engineering. A strong engineering school will have research, coop, internship opportunities more readily available to all engineering students. Many states have an "engineering State U", then there are the privates, MIT, Caltech, Case Western, etc. Check school websites for number of students in each major. Any school with 40% or more of all students majoring in engineering is going to have an engineering focus and mentality on campus.</p>

<p>H & I are engineers who went to strong state engineering school. S is freshman majoring in engineering at private school with emphasis on engineering.</p>

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<p>The prospective engineer already has the gin to make the engine do whatever he neers to do. </p>

<p>They are very logical, methodical, and linear. You continue in your life but periodically check what they are doing. If its not programming, building or wrecking things, reading tech stuff, and the like, then you need to worry and take things more into your own hands. </p>

<p>kid looked at the prof's graduating school as a criteria to determine quality. He also looked at the number of grad students. High #s =high quality. The proportion of internationals counted if the theory holds that if you are a full cost student and the cost between schools are nearly the same, then you had better choose the best school.</p>

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<p>Thanks everybody!</p>

<p>What is the difference between a co-op and an internship?</p>

<p>How do you tell if they really have a practical approach vs. a theoretcial? Won't they all claim to have a practical approach, thinking that's what kids want to hear?</p>

7

<p>To figure out how much of a practical approach there is ask current students about what sorts of projects are done in classes, especially freshman classes.</p>

<p>For Olin:
First semester freshman design and model (in Matlab) bottle rockets and design and create toys that hop and toys that climb vertical walls, among other things.</p>

8

<p>Weenie, I will answer yor last questions first. Cooperative Education provides the best opportunity to apply what is learned in the classroom in career-related positions by alternating semesters of full-time coursework with periods of paid, full-time employment. This usually means that the student will not graduate in the standard 4 years. Internship involves one work period with an employer. Summer internships are the most popular among students and employers; however, some employers offer internships during fall and spring terms as well.</p>

<p>Engineering is basically an applied science and as a result much of the coursework can be viewed as "practical" and creative problem solving. However in my upper level class in hydraulic modelling I cover subjects such as discrete and continuous time, discrete and continuous observations, gaussian and nongaussian variables, linear and nonlinear models, seasonal and nonseasonal models, stationarity and nonstationarity stochastic processes, long and short memory, etc.. The objective of the course is o learn how to mathematically model physical hydraulic systems. Is it practical or theoretical?? In my intro fluid mechanics course at Ohio State our final project was to create comp programs for 4 or 5 different applications of the Bernoulli Equation. When I asked oru professor why, he said that, though we knew how to apply the equation, he wanted us to gain a better understanding of the equation itself. Practicality I suppose is in the eyes of the beholder.</p>

9

<p>originaloog:
Thank you. Where do you teach?</p>

<p>With the co-ops, do the students work for the same company in these alternating semesters? Are they in the same town as the college?</p>

<p>Are internships paid? </p>

<p>So much to learn! THANKS again!</p>

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<p>momcounselor- can you tell us more about how you found the summer programs. Also a little about some of the things they did at the program. It sounds like something my son might look into doing next summer.
Weenie-thanks for starting this thread.</p>

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<p>Dear Weenie, I Just Called The Schools With Big, Well Known Engineering Reputations To Find Out If They Featured A Short Summer Program. So, It's Mon Am, They Learned About Mechanical Engineering, Pm It's Industrial, Eve It's Nuclear. Every Day They Were Introduced To 3 Disciplines. They Also Did Some Projects, Such As Robots For Electrical Engineering. Thus, My Son Learned He Hated Electrical But Liked Some Others. The Practical As Well As Theoretical Aspects Helped Him Focus On The Specific Topics. I Thought It Was A Good Investment Even Though He Decided The Classes Weren't His Passion As A 16-yr Old Boy.</p>

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<p>Weenie, the short answer is that co-ops are paid, interships are not. It's a little more complicated than that and on all tours that we took they explained co-ops and interships.</p>

<p>My S is applying to schools as a engineering major. Things that we found about touring schools.</p>

<p>-it was really important to us for the school (if it is not an engineering specific school) to have a seperate tour of the engineering facilities. We found that for the most part we were very impressed with schools which try to explain the complex issues which engineering faces. For instance theory vs. practical, co-ops, interships, graduation rates. </p>

<p>-engineering specific schools-lots of white men, not a lot of women. I hate to say this but it was so true for us. I thought that Rose Hulman was a great school, my S saw that it was 80% male and thought that he would like somewhere more "diverse".</p>

<p>-this was important for both of us. Big State U's. Do they have seperate learning communities for engineering students or a Honors college. Big State U's can be a great alternative but we felt that he needed to be around others in the same situation as him. Face it, he's probably going to be studying more than the Elementary Ed major.</p>

<p>-nuturing vs. throw the baby in the fire. Some schools we toured seemed to be more nuturing than others. Some schools have thrown out the look to your left, look to your right, only one of you will graduate. If you get into this school we will do everything we can to keep you here. Other schools seemed to still have the weed out mentality. It was important for my S to have more of a nuturing feel. His GC felt that this was just a marketing perception, that all schools are nuturing to a point and all will weed out those who can't perform.</p>

<p>Summer programs can be found, it takes a little sleuthing. If you have a D it is so much easier to find summer women in engineering programs for almost no cost. For S's it takes a little more work, but it's not too hard to find a program. Purdue has a summer engineering program, Rose Hulman has one called catapult, Michigan Tech has summer programs (if you can get there, it's a great place but really out of the way). My S went to a Chemistry camp this summer, he was recommended by his Chemistry teacher. It was not engineering but gave him a taste of the science department at a U that he was not considering before but one that he is applying to.</p>

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<p>Two other summer programs: There is a one-week summer program at the University of Arkansas at Fort Smith. Dr. Reynolds is a prof there, and is very active in the Engineering Major forum.</p>

<p>One that my son want to and didn't enjoy, but it's been around forever, so other people must like it, is Camp CAIN at the Univ of Mich.</p>

<p>Peg</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
Weenie, the short answer is that co-ops are paid, interships are not.

[/quote]
Not generally true about internships; actually they usually pay, and pay quite well for a college student compared to flipping burgers!</p>

<p>As to the OPs question, I think looking for "fit" is especially important. With ABET engineering degrees are more standardized than almost any other major. So you'll be learning the same stuff no matter where you go, although top schools will go beyond the min requirements. For fit, talk to current students and see if they're happy, what they think of the school and their profs, how they spend their time, etc.</p>

<p>My advice would also be to attend a U where other majors are offered. One engineering trade newspaper reports "With a few notable exceptions, U.S. engineering schools typically have attrition rates hovering between one-half and two-thirds." So just to play the odds I'd pick a school with other options unless your son is incredibly dedicated to engineering AND has experience already that shows him its the right field. The article is pretty interesting, and is at <a href="http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=45200041%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=45200041&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>This is great information. </p>

<p>Peggy:</p>

<p>Funny you should mention Camp Caen, because son went last summer and LOVED it. In fact, he's hell-bent on going back this summer - which, unfortunately, sort of rules out him doing an engineering camp. (But maybe I could bug him about it.) </p>

<p>deb922:</p>

<p>Your summary is great because I'm thinking along the same lines as you. </p>

<p>First of all, he has attended an all-boys school since 7th grade, and I kind of feel it is time to end that torture and let him meet some girls! So, that is a problem with some of the schools we will look at (RPI, WPI, RIT). Although, interestingly, when I bring that up as a possible obstacle, he says he still wants to look at them. </p>

<p>Also, the nurturing part. I'm worried about that. Having just successfully settled son #1 into a warm, personal, friendly LAC the big state U's are looking pretty scary. I hate the weed out nonsense - having been a victim of that in my own schooling. (Got weeded out as a pre-med - I wanted to go on in botany for goodness sakes!!!) </p>

<p>Also, the learning communities is a big thing to me. I think he really needs to be housed with other engineering majors so that they all have LOADS of work to do.</p>

<p>I guess Rochester Institute of Technology T (which is close to us) has some kind of a weekend program where they explore the different majors. I'll have him attend that. </p>

<p>Some of these schools are just SO far away and so hard to get to from our dumb airport. Unless he got practically a full ride (haha) we just couldn't afford a Rose Hulman or any west coast school.</p>

<p>What schools is your son going to apply to?</p>

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<p>Sorry mikemac, I stand corrected.</p>

<p>Weenie, my S is applying to a variety of schools, none of which are particularly exciting or prestigious. Ohio State, Cincinnati, Tulane, Marquette, Michigan Tech, Colorado School of Mines. I know, big urban school, kindof big urban school, I don't even know what to make of Tulane, private small urban school, remote medium sized school. </p>

<p>Who knows where he is going to end up, he has no idea. Probably going to suprise me and go to a school he hasn't even talked about.</p>

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<p>now to your first question weenie. A significant number of students who think they want to major in engineering decide that, for a variety of reasons, engineering is not their cup o tea. Therefore it is desireable that the college have other degree programs which may be alternatives for the student. Some students may be unsure what field of engineering they want to major in. I was in that boat and after taking the requisite statics and strength of materials courses I decided that Civil Engineering was for me and after my fluid mechanics class went on to specialize even further. Therefore universities with a broad number of engineering degree programs vs the smaller colleges offerring 4 or 5 biggies like CE, EE, ME, and ChE. Go to <a href="http://www.abet.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.abet.org&lt;/a> to see which programs are offerred.</p>

<p>Is it unrealistic to expect small classes?? Well yes and no. At almost all universities offerring engineering, students can expect large(>50students) lecture classes in the intro math and science prereq courses. However when they begin taking engineering related courses students will see class sizes getting increasingly smaller as they progress through their degree program.</p>

<p>Next look at the college's course catalogue to see what courses are offerred in the program you are interested in. All will offer the basic prereq courses but how many upper level technical electives are offered and how many areas of specialization can be chosen. By sr year most degree programs consist of primarily technical electives to allow the student to pursue a specialty. Ohio State ECE department offerred a course which participated in the design of a remote controlled vehicle DARPA competition. <a href="http://www.ece.osu.edu/ion/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ece.osu.edu/ion/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Next look at the facilities the department offers and are available to undergraduate education. My university has, among other facilities, a hydraulics lab equipped with several 150gpm centrifugal pumps, 3-30' orifice tubes&receiving tanks, 2-4"w, adjustible slope, open channel boxes w/replaceable weir outlets, a 450' pressure piping network equipped with 12 recording pressure guages. Rensselaer offers its undergrad the OTSwanson Multidisciplinary Lab(<a href="http://www.eng.rpi.edu:8080/mdl/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.eng.rpi.edu:8080/mdl/&lt;/a&gt;) allows its students to work on real product engineering under corporate sponsorship.</p>

<p>Next, see what research groups the department and department faculty participate in. While positions in these groups is normally restricted to profs, postdocs and doccandidates, the research sponsored there sometimes provides undergrads an opportunity to assist in their research labs. </p>

<p>Check with the engineering college's career services web page to see how many co-op and internship positions are available to students. These sites will often post corporate oncampus recruiting data and job statistics of recent graduates.</p>

<p>Most important is how the student feels about the entire university itself. He will be participating in campus life for an intense 4 years and he should be able to imaging himself enjoying and growing during that time.</p>

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<p>I just want to chime in here a little bit on some points raised.</p>

<p>Yes it's true that the big state schools have more resources, and more departments within the engineering umbrella, but they also have many many more graduate students and large classes, and very few research jobs for undergrads. I agree you should not consider an engineering-only school unless he absolutely has his heart set on it.</p>

<p>There's also another option which hasn't been mentioned. A number of LAC's have 5 year programs for engineering matched with tech schools. First 3 years at LAC, must take all the math & science then last 2 years at tech school. At end the student gets both a BA and a MS in engineering. Reed College connects with Caltech, there are several New England LAC's which work with Georgia Tech.</p>

<p>Another thing to consider (with or without coops) is does the school have a "capstone" course? Here at Johns Hopkins, all seniors take a year long class working in a group on a single project sponsored by a local company. It isn't just the design fun part--they have to do the financial budgeting, they have to do the project scheduling, they have to give several presentations to company representatives, planning everything within the limits set by the company, and so on. It's a very good simulation of what happens when they go to work for a company that has a lot of engineers.</p>

<p>I don't agree that a major fraction of the students must be engineering majors for it to be a good choice. Eng students are only about 1/3 of undergrads at JHU, but there is some separation between the engineering school and the school of arts & sciences.</p>

<p>Some more to chew on....</p>

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<p>Agree with wyogal that a majority of students being in engineering is not a requisite. May or may not even be desirable. Many highly rated engineering programs are at U's where there is a sizable, but minority, population of engineering majors. This can lead to nice small class sizes, ease of opportunity to develop relationships with faculty as an undergrad, do research etc.</p>

<p>Agree with all those who suggest a broader Univ over a tech school if kiddo is not 100% sure of engineering direction.</p>

<p>My S had the opportunity to do 2 weeks of job shadowing as part of his hs Senior Transition Project. He spent this half in a structural engineering firm and half in a semiconductor firm. He really, really enjoyed the goings-on and projects he was exposed to at the electronics firm. This did two things - confirmed that he is, in fact, interested in engineering and confirmed his choice to go for EE/Computer E. Still, he and we are happy that he chose a broad-based Uni with other strong fields besides engineering. Because "anything can happen." If your S can find a similar opportunity in the summer, eg, it might be beneficial.</p>

<p>Finally, agree with those who say put as much energy into choosing the overall campus environment as to choosing based on calibre of the Eng. Dept. A lot of College is about other than the academics. Many (most?) engineers will go for the MS, perhaps after a coupld of years or so in the work force. Choosing solely on academic calibre might be more appropriate at that level. </p>

<p>Just more food for thought.</p>

20

<p>Random thoughts from a mother of a possible future engineer . . .</p>

<p>My son is a junior, and has a very general idea of what he wants in an engineering school -- big. He does not want one of the small, engineering-only schools. He wants the full "college experience". * And since U of Mich is 30 minutes down the road with in-state tuition, that is his #1 choice. He thinks the other schools he wants to apply to are Univ of Ill and Northwestern. I think he also needs to apply to Mich State and Michigan Tech.</p>

<p>One of the questions that Husband and I have discussed is this: if he actually gets to decide between Northwestern (or Stanford, another dream of his) and University of Michigan, would he really get a $30,000 a year better education at Northwestern than he would at U of M?</p>

<p>If your son is looking towards mechanical engineering and really wants co-ops, check out Kettering Univ here in Michigan. It used to be General Motors Institute, and still seems to be heave in the automobile industry. But they advertise that their students can earn between $40,000 and $60,000 during their college years.</p>

<ul>
<li>The "full college experience" goes right along with him not enjoying Camp Cain. While he enjoys his computer, he also enjoys a good Super-Soaker fight or Capture the Flag. Too many of the people at Camp Cain wanted to spend too much time playing video games and IMing their friends for his taste. (I've sat here, staring at this for 15 minutes, trying to make sure I phrased that so it doesn't sound like I'm "dissing" the other kids who didn't want to play Capture the Flag . . . And if anyone has a 2005 Camp Cain brochure, let me know and I’ll tell you which one is my kid!)</li>
</ul>