<p>The 3:2 programs (LAC + U) sound great on paper, but from what I've heard anecdotally don't work that well in practice. Not because they're misleading you; they will deliver exactly what they promise. </p>
<p>But put yourself in the shoes of a kid in the 3rd year at the LAC. Its a comfortable and stimulating environment, she/he knows the profs and lots of friends, knows the campus and community, etc. To complete the 3:2 program means leaving all that behind and starting over at ground zero at a new college where most people have already made their solid core of friends, knowing none of the profs, having to fill in any missing gaps since the courses already taken are never going to be exactly the same as the ones taken by the engineers at their college, etc.</p>
<p>The alternative arises -- just put in one more year at the LAC and get a degree, just like everyone else around you is doing. And they seem pretty comfortable with their decision. It takes a very dedicated person to leave the LAC and spend 2 more years. Between 1/2 and 2/3 of those already IN engineering schools decide to leave before completing the degree; I would guess its even harder to leave 3 good years behind and go into the engineering school. </p>
<p>So while I can't give any first-hand numbers I'd suggest if the OP is considering this avenue to inquire at the schools what the actual completion rate has been recently.</p>
<p>My son wouldn't consider a 3:2 program. I suspect he would rather stay home than be at a LAC. But, I know both of my neighbor's kids did a 3:2 and it worked out well for them. They were in their home town, and the schools were not far apart. In fact, they may have kept living (off campus) with their same friends.</p>
<p>
[quote]
One of the questions that Husband and I have discussed is this: if he actually gets to decide between Northwestern (or Stanford, another dream of his) and University of Michigan, would he really get a $30,000 a year better education at Northwestern than he would at U of M?
[/quote]
In terms of overall engineering training, no. Both are respected schools and the ABET curriculum standardizes what they learn. The tradeoff is the intangibles; smaller class size and overall number of students, more personal attention, atmosphere of campus & the setting. That's what the 30K/year buys. Is it worth it? A tough call!!</p>
<p>Part of what is meant by "personal attention" is decent counseling and help exploring all these options and even nagging when it's necessary. Look at it this way, if someone threw the UofM catalog to you, and said "put together a four year engineering program with outside classes that fulfill all the graduation requirements AND produces a transcript that will be attractive to an employer AND balances just the right amount of breadth across disciplines and depth in one or two AND you will have become an educated woman, AND you will not have wasted your education dollars and time" could you do it? Not without help, I bet. And at a campus with 40,000 students you have to be pretty d*** persistent and expend a ton of time and energy to get that help, even if you have the personality that makes it easier (Hint: that's not the typical engineer/science/math personality). </p>
<p>And you have the benefit of adult experience--could an 18 year old do that?</p>
<p>So many students fail at this--they get the diploma, yes, but they aren't prepared for life and work and happiness. That's part of it too.</p>
<p>In addition to 3-2 programs there are some LACs that offer ABET-certified engineering programs themselves, including Trinity, Union, Smith, Swarthmore, Bucknell. Since the programs are small they don't offer the full range of disciplines (Swat doesn't have chemical engineering; Union terminated their civil engineering program a couple of years ago, etc.). But if they have what you're interested in, then the personal attention is unrivalled. Class sizes are small, there are no minimally-English-speaking TAs, etc. My son's a junior at Swat now, and he has never had an engineering class with more than 25 students--most often only about 12-15.</p>
<p>On summer camps, I would also recommend Michigan State's one-week program, which provides a solid introduction to the main fields of engineering.</p>
<p>After looking at the required classes for a Chem E major, there is not too much to worry about as far as electives and what would look good are concerned. The required classes are plenty to impress anyone if you can get through them all with decent grades. I'd be looking at that 3 credit elective as my breather class and take something that just sounded interesting and not too hard.</p>
<p>
[quote]
One of the questions that Husband and I have discussed is this: if he actually gets to decide between Northwestern (or Stanford, another dream of his) and University of Michigan, would he really get a $30,000 a year better education at Northwestern than he would at U of M?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Interesting question. From our perspective, my son would be thrilled with U Mich, even at the astronomical out-of-state tuition. If we could pay in-state - we'd be in heaven! People in states with great state schools are so lucky. We're stuck with SUNY, which I wouldn't wish on anyone. For $30,000 per year, it would be no contest in this household.</p>
<p>First of all, Michigan was more expensive than Northwestern for me as an international (no kidding). That's why Mich is ranked higher (kidding). ;) However, if the tuition at Michigan were 30,000/yr cheaper, I'd pick Michigan. </p>
<p>In most schools, your first year as an engineering student looks very much like that of other premed students--finishing English requirement, chem/calculus/physics sequences/labs. </p>
<p>Another point re 3:2 programs. Mikemac made some excellent points I hadn't thought of. DS decided not to consider the 3:2's for another reason. For some of them, there is no guarantee of acceptance at the engineering institution for those last 2 years. Need to apply etc.</p>
<p>A few things that convinced my son to choose the school he chose:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>As you said, 5 year BS/MS program. Why do a 3-2 and only get to Bachelor's degrees in 5 years.</p></li>
<li><p>A larger school with an engineering school embedded in it. This enables a male/female balance across all the schools on campus, though it is a bit lop-sided toward the male side within the engineering school. It also enables him to change his mind on engineering without having to transfer.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>FWIW, as SamLee points out there are a number of schools where you can earn a masters degree in one year after receiving your bachelors.</p>
<p>(Note: The $30,000 a year was the difference between Stanford & Northwestern and Univ of Mich.)</p>
<p>Despite all the research I've done regarding engineering programs and colleges and advantages and disadvantages, Univ of Mich seems to be exactly what he wants -- big, close, excellent engineering. Besides, my daughter's best friend says it's a good college, and he should know -- he goes there!</p>
<p>If you are looking for a small college, check out Michigan Tech. The good news is it's difficult for EVERYONE to get to! Go to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, then drive north. But it seems to be a good engineering school with lots of merit aid. That seems to be a popular school around here that the kids who can't or don't want to go to Univ of Mich.</p>
<p>couple of quick points to consider for an UNDERGRADUATE:
1) do not be blinded by such things as "earthquake simulaters" that your undergraduate will very likely never touch. I personally looked for programs that ranked well at the UNDERGRADUATE level and am often stunned that so few others consider that.
2) Average student changes majors 3 times. If your child chooses an engineering school and changes their mind, you are looking at a transfer.<br>
3) A lot of engineering schools are at least 70% men. If this appeals to your child, no problem.</p>
<p>My own son chose a school with a reknown engineering school within a larger university. While the engineering department does indeed have a very high percentage of men, he elected not to stay in the engineering dorm and is therefore enjoying the full "college experience" that he was looking for.</p>
<p>Peggy,
another thing to think about is if your S can get into Stanford or Northwestern, the likelyhood of merit aid from Michigan is high. It's really hard for kids from Michigan to make another choice, the price is so good for the quality of education that you get.</p>
<p>I had to crack up about your comment about Camp Cain. My S is not into video games and he did not want a school where the primary form of entertainment on Friday nights were LAN parties!</p>
<p>UMichigan for an in state student in engineering is perhaps one of the best bargains you could get. Other similar schools are Berkeley, UIUC and UNC. All things boing equal, send you S to UMichigan and save your money to send him to Stanford or Northwestern for graduate school . . . this 5 year masters may coast less than 4 years at either of the private schools.</p>
<p>Obviously, that is my opinion. In the end it really comes down to what the student needs. If they need a smaller environment then UMichigan may not be the right place. He will have to make that assessment himself.</p>
<p>A student looking at engineering schools would be wise to explore the college catalogue. Smaller schools frequently have a very limited selection of courses. Larger schools have a wide variety of courses, even within specific engineering disciplines. </p>
<p>Larger schools also have many more professors, so a student may be exposed to many different areas of interest. Of course, larger schools also come with the disadvantages which are often discussed in this forum.</p>