I’m just trying to reiterate the point that top schools will help a child if the school is a fit for the child irrespective of the field of choice.
So if the parent can afford then they should provide that to their child. I extended the analogy to private HS. If you can afford and the school is a fit then send your child to private HS as it will always help.</p>
<p>How does it matter whether OP’s child is looking for a fine art or an engineering institute?
4 of the 5 listed schools are top shot in fine arts and please double check MIT list in the top 20 in fine arts on the top world institutes too.</p>
<p>Well…I appreciate trying to keep the discussion on track, but I do think that the HPY (I forget the letters for the ivies) issues raised by other posters are relevant but they are the extreme case --extremely prestigious and extremely expensive and extremely good education potential. Some posters point out that the quality of education is actually not always clear-cut even for the Ivies/stanford/dukes out there since it depends on the kid taking advantage of that education. </p>
<p>However, I think I am asking my son to do a little US news and world report analysis of his schools – sort of “best bargains in art education”…it is noteworthy that USNews reports that UVA is considered a bargain but so is Harvard despite radically different tuition and fees. Our S has some extremes in his application list–RISD, MICA, SAIC–very expensive, very prestigious, but we aren’t sure of the educational value or the goodness of fit for him which is basically the numerator of the ratio of benefit to cost. He also has some schools where the denominator is approaching zero (full ride) so the ratio may look like it is approaching infinity–unless the numerator also approaches zero and we start to talk “undefined number”. Sorry for the math divergence…The extremes at both ends look to offer good value–the middle ones get very complicated–OOS at big state school with good art program–and we find hard to calculate their ratio. Some of the other poster ideas about putting a limit on parental expense or on indebtedness may help him try to focus on measuring both the denominator and the benefits in the numerator. </p>
<p>I really like Goaliedad’s story about the bassist brother. Son seems to want to make a living in the arts and has already considered doing a BFA/teaching BFA/compsci minor so he can live teaching/applying art skills if he can’t make it as an independent artist. He is pretty practical so I think his top choices are where he can pursue a minor (will not consider double major or Brown/RISD program as it will mean not focusing on art 80% of the time). It is nice that he has that clarity although it seems the world will lose a gifted mathematician but gain an artist… He also prefers the places that offer “conceptual” art rather than the emphasis on artist skills or artisanry. Of course, the conceptual art is the stuff that you can’t imagine will ever be sold or hung in a serious museum…</p>
<p>I’m talking about the University/College experience. It only comes once in your life and for an accomplished child to spend those years not intellecutally stimulating is a waste.</p>
<p>I’ve never equated success with HMSPY but I’m sure that if a child is going to be successful then HMSPY will only add to the success and not hinder.</p>
<p>I’m baffled by the idea that HMSPY is not worth the additional $20000/year for a child who will benefit from it and parent can afford it.</p>
<p>I’ve always maintained that if you need to take a loan to send your child to HMSPY then think twice but if you can afford then do send as it will only help.</p>
<p>I think if you got out of the HYPSM bubble a little bit you might find that there are plenty of places where students can have a fabulous life-of-the-mind. Women’s college. LAC’s.</p>
True, I’ll say parent who can afford should send the child if a good fit at top LAC over UCB for any arts/science major.
But will maintain that for Engineering UCB will be better over Brown or Dartmouth.
Similarly if you can afford then send the child to Duke, JHU for pre - med over UCB if can’t afford then UCB or UCLA might be better.
DD would have gone to Princeton over UCB for engineering even though it consistently rank lower because I think Princeton would have provided a better undergraduate experience over UCB and we can afford it.</p>
<p>I know this is a bit off-topic, but MIT’s new Art major (Art and Technology or whatever they call it) is amazing. Go check the website. Last year it was my favorite.</p>
<p>tActually, the debate over the HPYetc is not so theoretical. His super reach is Yale with the best graduate sculpture program in the country…not so sure about undergrad. I did ask DH …just imagine if he actually got in there would you pay for it without question when we have doubts about a similar costing art school such as SAIC or MICA? We don’t actually anticipate having to face this dilemma…but it raises all sorts of philosophical issues we would face about how we value an “art” education, prestige, and the value of a beautiful campus…We figure if he actually makes it and chooses it, the grandparents will step in for the golden child if we hint that never-heard-of-it-state U trumps the Ivy in our opinion…</p>
<p>OP: Dear friend has son at MICA. They come from a family of artists. The school is doing a very good job of balancing his love of painting with helping him craft a program that will yield career options.</p>
<p>“I agree that allowing a kid to apply to a school that you would not be willing to pay for is unfair.”</p>
<p>The problem is that the cost can be unknown when you apply, given the vagaries of merit and financial aid. We certainly can give a warning that we might not be able to afford it, but I’d let the kid apply if we think there’s a reasonable chance that we can afford it with the right aid.</p>
<p>Never mind for the family that can afford it but just doesn’t like the school; we also reserved veto power, thankfully unneeded.</p>
<p>Meryl Streep’s H, Don Gummer, came from the midwest and went to Yale’s scupture program. He has quite a name for himself apart from her in art circles, and I really like his work. Check it out.</p>
<p>I would go with Yale over no name for art. It’s a world in which prestige does matter, and not just to market the “fine art.”</p>
<p>If Art News is going to hire a staffer, the Yale name is definitely going to help. Ditto for museum work.</p>
<p>Williams Art Department is known to yield curators in the US (along with others, like Tufts.)</p>
<p>Since the value of art is all so subjective, it’s a world in which coming in the extra prestige can only help.</p>
<p>And I think about it this way – there is no point going after Fine Art unless one is going to give it his/her all. One can’t succeed without that.</p>
<p>And if that fails, well, the person is developed and still has a good degree that can go many places, even if a post-bac year is required (I know many musicians who give up and go to med school.)</p>
<p>My S went to college planning on serious classical music composition. It didn’t work out for him, and he is now a Classics Major, I can’t tell if that is more or less practical (LOL) but I don’t care. He is developing HIMSELF. He knows he will eventually have to earn a living, and I have no doubt that he will.</p>
<p>The art program at MIT is not a full major, but it is a strong, vibrant program with a masters program. It’s called visual studies and is offered under the auspices of the School of Architecture and Planning.</p>
<p>Thought I’d clear that up.</p>
<p>And although it’s not for every artist (of course), for the right artist I imagine it’s a simply awesome program. We know that technology is going to play a role in everything society goes about offering from now on.</p>
<p>My H is a professional photographer still in love with film. He doesn’t get to do too many film-based projects anymore. It’s a good thing he is a techie type because learning photo shop and the digital world has been time consuming for him for not prohibitive. He can still practice his profession. Not all photographers have been so lucky.</p>
<p>He does have a graduate degree from a “good” institution, but I don’t know how much impact it’s had on his “career”, such as it is.</p>
<p>He has always earned a living with his camera. It’s not the living that an investment banker makes, or a surgeon, but it has kept pace with most of the professions of our friends. </p>
<p>It seems that it’s always tight, but then he comes through.</p>
<p>He has had periods of utter failure, but he has also had the opportunity to come back from them. And there have been times we’ve been grateful for a flexible schedule and self-employment. No one can lay him off, and he can always drum up some business when things get a bit dire.</p>
<p>I think for him, it’s been wise path.</p>
<p>And fortunately, my job as a college professor has provided the stability and benefit.</p>
<p>I like the idea of the US News and World Report analysis. Might get son to do the same for a liberal arts education (he doesn’t have a major yet but would like it to be more liberal arts than not).</p>
<p>Yes -for us it’s the middle ones that are the hardest to ‘value’. This is where we get confused. Maybe it’s worth sending him to Chicago at $55,000 a year but not so sure about a small, LAC in the middle of nowhere that no one has ever heard of, when we have a very comparable LAC 40 minutes down the road at 1/2 the price. That’s the hard part. That is also why we don’t feel we can make a decision until all the offers (merit aid) come in and we can compare them. Of course, fit and student desire are a few of the things that are less quantifiable but nevertheless must be taken into account. Hopefully, come next spring it will all fall into place (keeping fingers crossed) :)</p>
<p>re #172, #173
OK, Mythmom, Here’s a thought myth for your students:</p>
<p>Did God, know what (s)he know what he was doing when he told Adam and Eve, to Not eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge? and Did Eve give God, ‘The Look’? </p>
<p>{I think Eve was the “rich” kid who always wanted Premium and not the Value choice of knowledge.}</p>
<p>vicariousparent –
Re: Best Western vs. Motel 6: When S2 was about four, we were on vacation and it was getting dark. Pulled off at an exit, S2 saw a sign and said, “That motel has a ‘6’ on it. We can stay there.” We were so proud. ;)</p>
<p>I think Eve is the woman who had a bad rap at the advent of agriculture when mythology was replacing goddess figures (including the Hebrews) with patriarchal god figures. With the discovery of paternity control of female sexuality became important so men could insure leaving their lands to actual biological descendants.</p>
<p>We get two versions of the creation of humans in Genesis I and II. The first is egalitarian (male and female He created them), the second sexist (Adam’s rib and the idea of Eve as the helpmeet.)</p>
<p>So my students recognize Eve as a Pandora figure – part of an entire class of female mythological characters who are discredited for their sexuality (commonly along with the serpent.) Milton didn’t help.</p>
<p>That said, I love PARADISE LOST. More than anything, that makes me feel old. Young people don’t usually like Milton.</p>