<p>Welcome to the club.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t knock the URM hook. It’ll come in handy. Talents and grades are over rated.</p>
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<p>I absolutely see that here as well. The end game of HYPSM just isn’t as big of an end game here as it may be in the northeast or in POIH’s little corner of the world. Plenty of rich families send their kids to U of I, or maybe Indiana or Wisconsin. Good enough, good price, and they did well going to these schools, so unless the kid is dying to go to HYPSM, what’s the point of pushing them there? This mentality that financial success can only be had from HYPSM is just seen as silly and laughable around here, when so many people have done well without those things.</p>
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<p>I’m not sure I’d let my kid even apply to a place that I’m not willing to fund in some manner (that is, a school I thought was an abysmal value for the money). I’d rather cross things off at the get-go than have an acceptance in hand and then cross it off.</p>
<p>What we did for S2 and D in a situation where we were already paying full price for S1 at one of the most highly selective LACs in the country (might not do that again):</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Said we would pay for an equivalent school (felt we had to).</p></li>
<li><p>Set a price limit at less selective schools equal to price of flagship state university; would not allow borrowing to go above that price.</p></li>
<li><p>Offer 50% of the difference between the cost of any lower price school and that of the state university.</p></li>
</ol>
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<p>Yeah. I was never in my life so glad for something to be over. But then I didn’t discover CC until late in the season. Post all of your questions and frustrations; the wise ones here will at the very least let you know that you’re not alone.</p>
<p>Oh, and that blank look? D is a freshman at a tiny, well-regarded-but-little-known LAC 1500 miles from here. So when people ask me where she’s going to school, I’ve stopped saying, “XXXX College.” Instead I say, “XXXX-College-it’s-a-small-liberal-arts-college-in-Indiana.” One word.</p>
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<p>LOL. Actually, we get blank stares because most of the schools on Son’s list are “no name” schools. You know, slacker schools like Lafayette, Dickinson, U of Richmond, and Gettysburg. ;)</p>
<p>When we finally mention U of Md (financial safety but not a true fit) or Wake Forest (dream reach) we hear the oohs and ahhs. That’s because, as everyone knows, a football or basketball team on national TV = good school. :rolleyes:</p>
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<p>I’m in NH which is in the Northeast but I see a lot of wealthy families that send their kids to State Us - mind you these are self-made wealthy. Perhaps New Hampshire, Maine and Vermont are different compared to MA and CT.</p>
<p>Back to the premise of the thread – to see the choice in a particular way.</p>
<p>Hm. I still say that’s difficult without the financial experience parents have.</p>
<p>And if I were going to let myself buy a granite countertop, I’m not sure I would parse the rewards of laminate and think of all the things I could do with the money if I chose the laminate. I might, but I might have an entirely different process. I might just let myself get swept up in the fun of buying the granite countertops.</p>
<p>FWIW: H and I kept our old laminate, painting them, and put ten coats of high gloss poly on them. They are very elegant aubergine counters. No one can guess the building materials. They cost $40.00 in materials, or something like that.</p>
<p>We love them, and to me they represent the freedom to pay tuition at the exact schools my kids want to go to.</p>
<p>I don’t think my S or D could ever understand how many things are different for me because they don’t attend SUNY. I’m not sure I even want them to. It’s my decision to be willing to send them; I don’t see how they could have the data points to evaluate the financial aspects of the decision.</p>
<p>However, they have both been diligent in working on campus every semester and earning their own spending money. DD worked in the Provost’s office of four years and some summers; DS works in the library.</p>
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<p>YES. Well said.
If we go on a family vacation and we decide to stay in a nice hotel, I don’t necessarily need them to think through “what if we had stayed at the Best Western instead.”</p>
<p>I don’t want our son to try and weigh the costs for us (giving up those granite countertops! or even downsizing a little our retirement) but to weigh the costs for him. Never have we discussed with them how our lifestyle has been impacted by expenditures on the children, but he has heard our discussions about large purchases and seen efforts to value them. He knows that we support relatives abroad, provide emergency loans to friends, contributed to education costs of cousins, etc. and understands that those expenditures are not really in the same decision making world as the countertops because they are to help people we love. We never say, if you pick XYZ we can’t retire early or we gave up the dream kitchen to save for college. Guilt is a horrible motivator and, like all parents, seeing our kids happy and successful at college is “priceless” …that’s why they have to be part of the decision making process since I think they may have a better handle on what will make them “happy and successful” and whether they can get this at prestigious U or at unknown-outside-of-immediate-area stateU. </p>
<p>At the same time, parental views do count… I agree that allowing a kid to apply to a school that you would not be willing to pay for is unfair. You have to tell them upfront that they will have to find the funds for such a school. He still has one on his list that I think is really overpriced for the value–I find the school pretentious–and there are better and closer ones. I have told him so, so he is hesitant to apply–I won’t stop him but he will have to produce some information to change my mind about it being a feasible choice or get enough merit aid to swing it on his own. That has been our only “no” . I have paid the very high application fee for an impossible reach because “you never know”…I want to support their dreams but I also feel free to say “no” to something that I am convinced is a bad deal. </p>
<p>Oh, last…I took the advice of a very wise CC poster and made him apply to a “mommy’s choice”…a school that he never thought of but my research showed has a lot of the things he is looking for and he is likely to get substantial merit aid…I think it looks like a great deal and he can visit if he gets in with merit aid…he has agreed to at least consider this option.</p>
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<p>Those of us who stay at the Motel 6 also wonder the same thing ;)</p>
<p>I suggested to DW that DS could go to our local state engineering school, perhaps garner one of those scholar’s keep-em-in-the-state,scholarships, or pay full instate tuition and invest the difference…All I got was the Wifey Look.</p>
<p>Seven years later, I am constantly reminded that the suggestion was worse that stupid, followed by that, accompanied the Wifey Sneer.</p>
<p>LongPrime: That’s our job, and we have perfected it!</p>
<p>fineartsmajormom: Thank you for explaining. I am moved by your generosity. It’s always heart warming to read about people with means caring so much. There are many posters on CC who express those feelings. </p>
<p>I am proud to report that the “mommy school” idea was originally mine – my coinage too of terminology. And for us, mine ALMOST attended. They weren’t so much financial safeties but academic safeties. Still, it’s good to get some movement out of the kids so they can think outside the box, just for a minute.</p>
<p>I think I understand what you mean. None of us wants spoiled, entitled kids. So I am sure your talks are right on to allow good choices and good values. I wish your son wonderful results. What is his art work like? We are musical here, but very, very art challenged.</p>
<p>fineartsmajormom,</p>
<p>I think you have a better handle on the situation than you suspect. </p>
<p>I would say the most important thing in making the best value decision right now is filtering out the “noise” you hear from people who do not know your son’s desires and plans to get there. You mentioned that you are hearing those “you are going there” discussions going on. Those are the first on the filter list. I think your son probably understands that his peers are not the best resource for information and that their “approval” of his college choices are meaningless in the pursuit of his dreams.</p>
<p>I know goaliegirl’s list of schools draw a lot of “huh?” responses until I carefully explain that they encompass the list of schools containing all of the critical elements she wants from her college experience. And all of the schools are either match or safety schools. This often elicits a response of “are you underestimating her?” to which the response is, “She will have enough on her plate with her ECs. No use in risking an academic overload.” And you know, she’s all right with the schools on her list. Isn’t hung up on going to a “name brand” U. And her boarding school has been fine with everything. They aren’t about building up the prestige of their matriculation list at the expense of their students’ success and satisfaction. </p>
<p>And with regards to a “Mommy school”, Mom has weighed in over the process on which of the schools she prefers (goaliedad is more interested in her decision process and the information she is using than the decision itself), but we are strong enough to let her make the ultimate call.</p>
<p>About the only thing else besides the “value” that you haven’t brought up here is the risk/reward analysis that goes into a school decision. Some choices have a high degree of certainty with limited upside, while others have significant risk (making the cut) with either a very high reward or an outcome that requires remediation.</p>
<p>Beyond the dollars and cents, what academic/career risks is your son willing to take on via the college choice? Is he a type who swings for the fences, or is he a contact hitter? And how does he view the schools in this regard? Or is it even a question with the list of schools he has?</p>
<p>Goalie dad…got a bit lost with the sports analogies with fences and bats and swings…please put in terms of sable brush versus faux hair for mother of artist…just joking. The risk reward tradeoff is a particularly important aspect for students in a fine or performing arts world…you really can’t tell how they will do out of school and no matter what it is a huge leap of faith to do a BFA with the expectation of living off of one’s art. When we tour the art schools and senior shows sometimes you see things that are “huh??” momemts. We toured one highly prestigious school and the very together girl --jewelery major) who showed us around had already had one internship with Tiffany’s and was in competition for one with another big name company…Excited at potential lucrative future for artistic son as well as lots of future glittery art for son’s biggest supporter…I asked if she could show us some of her work-- I kid you not --the “jewelry” she had in her portfolio consisted mainly of vacuum parts and fluff/grunge made into necklaces and bracelets! She saw my face and said her mom had been a bit disappointed also. Success in art is a great mystery to me…</p>
<p>Pizzagirl:
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<p>I think it is very practical to say if a student doesn’t want to matriculate to HMSPY then there is no sense in forcing the child. But saying that HMSPY won’t add value to an already accomplished child is absurd.
A top school will only help not hinder an accomplished child, but it should be a good fit to the child. Anyone getting into HMSPY will have sufficient choices to make sure that they endup at the best possible place for them.
Still it might be my little corner but it seem that corner runs from Washington to Florida and CA to NH where all the accomplished children at any public or private school aspire to be at HMSPY.
Not including the most accomplished high school children world over who also aspire a place at HMSPY.</p>
<p>finearetsmajormom,</p>
<p>Sorry to lose you in the sports world, although I think you understand the risk/reward idea. Yes, measuring the potential of any artist is the hardest part of deciding the appropriate path to take. However, I think the key to the risk/reward decision ultimately is driven by the potential outcomes, not the expected outcomes.</p>
<p>I’ll try to speak to the arts world, although the only part I am in any way familiar with is music and I’ll take you back to my brother who is the bassist.</p>
<p>While his dreams were always to play under the best conductors in the best orchestras, the question of “what would you do if you couldn’t?” drove his educational decision. He always wanted to make his living with music, so preparing himself for other opportunities - smaller orchestras, teaching, etc. were always at the back of his mind. He knew there are 3 ways to get into an audition as a young instrumentalist - where you went to school, and who you studied with, and where have you worked your way up from. With the last 2 of those, you can get a degree anywhere and use that degree as a backstop for other related music opportunities. Going to a major conservatory, however, isn’t the place where most applicants go to become an instructor.</p>
<p>So with his I’m going to make a living with music no matter where mindset, he chose the ordinary college music performance degree while studying with the best teachers in his area. It allowed him to pursue the small symphony job (which he ultimately got). And that small symphony job led to instructional jobs and conducting jobs which since the demise of that orchestra have been his career. He had many an audition for several major orchestras over the years, but was never able to break through. However, his chose path led him to what has been a satisfying career.</p>
<p>I think there can be parallels drawn (pun intended) with the visual arts as well. I’m sure there are places to go to school where it is all about the development of the artist (similar to the music conservatory). And there are also schools that give a broader, but not necessarily as intense (in art) education. They may better qualify him for an art related career than a pure art school (pardon the lack of using the right term). He can also pursue more outside inspiration/instruction in addition to that broader school education with the eye towards giving the “artist’s life” the college try as well, I’m sure, but those are more difficult to obtain and probably not as good.</p>
<p>I’m sure there are artists who want no part of anything but studio work and would rather flip burgers than do commercial art (for the lack of a better example of a contrived artistic profession, my apologies to any commercial artists in the audience). They would be the type to only choose the intense art school over the broader educational experience.</p>
<p>So the question with regards to risk/reward is what outcome does he seek in life (or does he even know?). Which will give him the best opportunities to achieve career satisfaction?</p>
<p>“Anyone getting into HMSPY will have sufficient choices to make sure that they endup at the best possible place for them.”</p>
<p>POIH, I have a young quite accomplished family member who is a recent grad of HMSPY and currently waiting tables… Generalizations.</p>
<p>POIH,</p>
<p>Uh, whose thread is this??? The OP has never mentioned HYPSM. And the OP is not in your corner of the world, no matter how big it seems in your mind. Please go and start your own thread if you’d like to talk about the merits of an elite academic school as this thread is about a fine arts education, where MIT definitely would not be in the top 100 schools.</p>
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<p>Are you talking about value in the sense of “what he or she will make financially” or value in the sense of “he or she will experience a life-of-the-mind that will be harder to come by at the state flagship”? </p>
<p>Because if it’s the former, I have to laugh. I know families who are extremely wealthy with certain businesses (chains of restaurants, car dealerships, retail, etc.) and their kids are going to go into those businesses and frankly HYPSM won’t make a darn bit of difference in their ultimate financial success. There’s another thread in which schools such as Ole Miss are being discussed - and it’s very evident that in some parts of the country, the business elite of the city send their kids to certain schools (Ole Miss in MS, SMU in Dallas, etc.) and those degrees serve them well, if not better, than fancy-schmancy HYPSM degrees.</p>
<p>I think you are startlingly naive, POIH, of the little bubble you inhabit where everyone aspires to HYPSM, and of the world of work in America, when many people are successful without HYPSM degrees.</p>