<p>"How about in the instance of a kid who has a visual disability?"</p>
<p>Isn't there a braille version of the SAT? Otherwise, blind kids are gonna have a heck of a time trying to answer the questions.</p>
<p>--operasinger</p>
<p>Not to be a total jacka$$, but your case doesn't seem so different from someone who just isn't that smart. Tell me where you would draw the line between someone who is not smart and someone who can't understand material at the pace of everyone else? There are plenty of people who don't understand everything that is said in class; shouldn't they be the ones who get the lesser grades. Why should you get extra time just because you can't keep up with your peers?</p>
<p>The ACT/SAT is supposed to be "standardized," which, to me, means that everyone should be treated equally. If it was intended to test how much a student knows, everyone would be granted indefinite time to complete it. However, it is meant to test how you can perform within set time restrictions. Please try to make me understand why then you feel that you should be given accommodations so you can keep up with quicker thinkers?</p>
<p>I know this sounds bad, but I am not trying to go out of my way to be contentious. I think what a lot of people have to understand is that life is not fair; some people are smart enough to study little and get good grades, while others have to study a lot to even pass. Deal with it.</p>
<p>BTW, I have been diagnosed with learning disabilities. I don't seek accommodations for my deficiencies. If I don't understand something, I just bust a$$ and figure it out. I don't look for handouts like some people on this board seem to do.</p>
<p>"life is not fair" (hidden conclusion: therefore we shouldn't fix whatever is unfair)</p>
<p>It isnt that other people are quicker thinkers it's that the format of the SAT (text) inhibits some people based on an unusual and specific (i.e. not just less intelligent) genetic predisposition. The SAT is supposed to help admissions better gauge an applicants intelligence/success in college, but a dyslexic applicant that got a 1500 on it will look just as capable as someone without dyslexia getting a 1500, yet clearly, since the dyslexic applicant had to fight his dyslexia, and still got the same as a 'normal' individual, he is a more desirable candidate. This cannot be expressed though without making a differentiation between a normal 1500 and a dyslexic 1500. The way to remedy this is to give extra time, since that is the limiting/unfair problem, and not his intelligence or cabapility to do well in college or a certain job (which what the SAT is trying to gauge).</p>
<p>mathtastic_nerd</p>
<p>I've just about given up arguing on this board because it seems that people cling to this pseudo-progressive dream that a minority section of the population should be granted advantageous testing conditions. To me, the fundamental issue of concern is "where does one draw the line?". What if average Joe Blow with no LD diagnosis could get a 1400 without extended time but a 1500 with three extra hours. If this perfectly capable student isn't able to read the essays (say, for example, in the CR section) carefully enough within the defined period, should he be given more time to complete it? Maybe the student isn't dyslexic, but rather, just cannot read quickly--should he be given extra time? If not, why should only a dyslexic student be given extra time just because the doctor says that said individual has a "real" problem. Why isn't simply not being able to read quickly considered a LD? The answer: because such a skill is one component of being "smart." </p>
<p>Again, I repeat, the SAT is not meant to test the optimal performance of a student (b/c if it was, everyone would have enough time to complete it at their own pace), but how much a student can do in a defined time limit. If some sort of problem prevents the test's completion--so what--it's not "unfair" so much as it is just reality. LD or no LD, everyone should be given a STANDARDIZED test under STANDARDIZED conditions.</p>
<p>Plus, standardized conditions would eliminate the exploitation of LD accommodations (which, I speculate--with my school as an example--to be at least ~85%).</p>
<p>"separate but equal" is "inherently unequal"</p>
<p>I don't seek accommodations for my deficiencies. If I don't understand something, I just bust a$$ and figure it out. I don't look for handouts like some people on this board seem to do.</p>
<p>I think that is great to hear.
Knowing that some people who process things in a completely different part of their brain than most "normal" people, can still succeed through sheer determination, urges me to suggest to you to be a mentor to others and teach them your methods.
Perhaps after you teach dyslexics to "read quickly", deaf to "hear" and the blind to "see", you can branch out into teaching the lame to walk ! <B</p>
<p>Last comment (promise--as I'm direly trying to get over the issue), but in response to your needlessly undiplomatic jab; emeraldkity4, are you not just proving all of my arguments correct? </p>
<p>I wholly agree that there are individuals who process things in completely different ways. Do I think they deserve extra time?--some, possibly. Should colleges be informed of said accommodations?--I think so.</p>
<p>The deepest, most central issue that stirs my concern is the one of abuse (refer to: my "where does one draw the line?" comment). emeraldkity4, you are blindly assuming that my ability to overcome my LD is some sort of miracle (as you relate it to teaching the blind to see). I can assure you that my LD, which would qualify me for extra time on SAT/ACT, can be conquered through sheer determination (I am living, breathing proof). Thus, the issue of abuse comes to mind. If someone like me (who can qualify for extra time) is able to get National Merit-level scores without accommodations, what about those people who choose to take extra time anyway. Should I have extra time?--some would say yes, but I personally don't think so. Should others like me then have extra time? BTW, my LD is fairly common, and the potential for abuse is therefore great.</p>
<p>My advise to you emeraldkity4: stick to debating subjects that you are not completely ignorant of. As for me, I'm only trying to open eyes.</p>
<p>I wholly agree that there are individuals who process things in completely different ways. Do I think they deserve extra time?--some, possibly. Should colleges be informed of said accommodations?--I think so</p>
<p>I agree with this- I have read research that illustrates how different parts of thebrain are used with ADHD. THis is very inefficent and requires much more time for the same functions.
If the purpose of testing is to evaluate college readiness, it follows that accomodations that will be received in college and in the workplace, be provided on the test, otherwise, an accurate evaluation of preparedness cannot be attained.
However, I do agree that it should be noted which accomodations were provided, for the simple reason that if the college balks at admitting someone who received accomodations, its best the student know upfront, rather than after admittance when it is more important that accomodations be available.</p>
<p>I don't know what your learning disability is and I don't know how it was measured. For the students I know, they have been tested many times, and the disabilities are profound and long lasting, however, the IQ is quite high, and they are well able to benefit from college.
While you may feel it isn't "fair" for some to receive accomodations, while you do not, that isn't the point.
Education isn't a contest, it is an opportunity to be taken advantage of, and if one person can read lips easily, but another cannot, it is not to anyones benefit to expect them both to lip read.
If one student has difficulty tracking across midline, or/and with taking written notes, a note taker or tape recorder can serve that purpose, and allow the student to excel.</p>
<p>Your main point however seems to be with extra time.
I would like to point out that for many with ADD, extra time isn't going to make that much of a difference. While an ADD brain needs more time for similar function than non ADD brain, it also must be considered that those functions also consume energy. It isn't possible to be expending more concentration and energy for an unlimited amount of time.</p>
<p>Schools are now also acknowledging this. For the schools I am familiar with, SAT or ACT test scores are just one piece of the data that is considered for admission. Grades, essays, interviews and background are also considered.</p>
<p>I wonder if the SAT time frame is not so much for testing the speed of students as for convenience of the testors. They probably took an average of how much time these sections take most students, and stuctured it that way. I think that students who truly need the extra time benefit more from getting it than regular students would. If a 'normal' kid can get through the CR sections in the allotted time, how much of a raise in score would you expect them to get with extended time? Why would their scores rise significantly if they can already finish it in standard time? My D can only get through maybe 2/3 of the questions because of her visual problem--sometimes only 1/2...it's a mechanical problem with her eyes. If she gets extra time and gets those last 1/3 questions wrong, then it's her fault---she just cannot handle that level of question. If she cannot even get to the questions without a little extra time, I don't think it is. Extended time is supposed to level the playing field, not give kids an edge. The abuses that are happening make it look bad for everyone.</p>
<p>I wonder if it is really that abused.
If a student is recieving accomodations in their school- I suspect they had to jump through hoops to do so.
For example
even though my daughter was found to need an IEP to be able to participate in class when she entered the public school system, the district was reluctant to provide services. I had to pay out of pocket for an evaluation in order for them to do so. Additionally, while this evaluation does qualify her for time on the SAT, ( the school insisted that she take the PSAT without accomodations), it is quite extensive in filling out the details why she qualifies and the difficulties that she has.
When I had her removed from her IEP in middle school- for the sole reason that they were not providing her with the services that she needed, and it was a waste of her time to attend the class,they decided ( without testing) that she didn't need services anymore, when we changed schools and we tried to again qualify her for an IEP.
Schools don't want to be legally required to provide more than they absolutely have to.
While her disability has not changed, our family decided it was more efficent to put our energy toward working with the teachers, to get the accomodations, rather than to try and get the district to write those up.</p>
<p>If psychologists are indeed writing up reports that are lies, qualifying students for accomodations that are non existant, then the problem lies with those psychologists, not the students which have legitimate need of accomodations.
However, just as I suspect we dont know all the details re financial aid, going by the number of complaints on CC re students who are getting 'need" based aid, without need- who may have other indications that the bystanders aren't aware of.
I think that probably in many cases that we feel we know better than the college board and the school who "deserves" accomodations or not, we simply don't have all the information</p>
<p>I think that schools jump through hoops when threatened with lawsuits, which I imagine happens fairly frequently. People also hire advocates to go to bat for them against the school system. Those things along with a diagnosis on a letterhead go a long way toward getting what you want. But they're all every expensive, which is why they are more commonly done in more afluent neighborhoods. My D was not tested in school. I paid for it to be done, which is very expensive and not covered by insurance. The results of that test and of her pediatric opthalmologist's reports was not enough. I dealt with the rest on my own, because I can't afford the above options. My D also took the PSAT without accomodations. The ETS was too slow in granting her accomodations even though we were fighting for the better part of 1 1/2 years before the PSAT was given. I've done as much as I can at this point. Forget the ACT. I can't face another battle like that. Hopefully my D will score well enough next week to be done with the whole thing. She just needs to finish that CR!</p>
<p>( I am not that familiar with the SAT- what is the CR? )</p>
<p>I know there are many many people who are gifted and learning disabled.
Optimally, I think students should all be given IQ tests upon entering school, and again 5 years later to determine learning style and strengths, with curriculum written to support that.</p>
<p>One girl I know for instance has an overall IQ of 160, which apparently topped out that test. However, in group administered acheivement tests that are timed, she scores average to below average in some areas.</p>
<p>When viewing individual scores on the IQ test, it is obvious that she has strengths that are off the charts, however, other indicators illustrate that because of processing difficulties, she isn't always able to make full use of her skills.</p>
<p>A school setting that is very linear, and teaches subjects in isolation, might show average performance. But given experiential learning, and an opportunity to access her holistic way of thinking may show her to be the brightest kid in the class.</p>
<p>Now I would also argue, that this method of teaching, would be optimal for many kids, but it particulary makes a difference for this one.</p>
<p>What is the objective in allowing accomodations in the workplace and schoolroom?
I would like to think that the objective is to support workers and students so they can excel. Our society benefits when we all work to the best of our ability, without artificial barriers or obstacles to hinder our work.</p>
<p>Someone might see this as leveling the playing field, by which I suppose is meant, giving the worker with the disability the means to compete at the same place as someone without the disability.</p>
<p>The way I see it, whether we allow URM a boost in admissions, or disabled students accomodations, it still doesn't make a "level" field, however, we at least are making the attempt, and acknowledging that we are doing what we can to make things more equitable- which benefits everyone.</p>
<p>I have no idea if extended time is going to make a difference for D on SAT- she is concerned about the #2 pencils as she writes with a technical pencil for legibility.
We didn't have trouble getting accomodations for SAT, once they were submitted- it was just that the school talked us out of submitting them in time for PSAT.
We are still going to look at accomodations for ACT- although I suppose I should get right on that before school gets out!</p>
<p>fusiondogg---I contacted the NJ Foundation for the Blind for help in dealing with the ETS. They do have a braille edition of the SAT, and they also have a larger font edition. My daughter is not blind...it's not a sight issue, but a visual processing issue. She just can't discriminate dense text, but does fine with math and writing questions. The larger font was the first accomodation that was granted and it was somewhat helpful, but the fact that the testing booklet was the size of the NY Times made it difficult to manipulate (other kids were giving her dirty looks in the testing room for making noises turning the pages!), which slowed her down even more and she turned it in for a normal sized one. They initially resisted giving her extended time. She did keep the larger font answer sheet, though. That was very helpful. Because her reading will never improve, and hasn't despite thousands in SAT prep just for the reading, her PSAT score was extremely lopsided...a 20-point difference (and 40 percentile difference) between the math/writing(both high) and the reading. Her testing psychologist said that no amount of prep will fix her issue, and taking into account her PSAT scores, they finally granted her the extra time. Now, we'll see if it helps this saturday. Ihope, do you see how a documented problem can affect scores? do you still think that it's unfair? There are a number of 'soft' diagnoses, which make the issue much cloudier. One of these is ADHD. My daughter also has ADHD, but refuses medication and pushes through on her own. It's one of those diagnoses that can be manipulated for the system...it's a very subjective one, based mostly on observation and history, and it seems to be greatly overdiagnosed. I think the kids with real ADHD that is not adaquately controlled would have an awful time focusing for the entire extended time SAT. The normal time frame would be hard enough. Kids whose ADHD is well controlled with meds shouldn't need the extended time. But the diagnosis would be easy to get documentation for if the student and parents fudged the history a little. That would be one easy avenue of abuse.</p>
<p>The ADHD diagnosis, is, I believe abused by middle-class or affluent parents. When D3 was evaluated and diagnosed w/ "mild" or borderline ADD, which would qualify her for a variety of accommodations. I worry about the over-diagnosis of ADHD and accommodations extended to kids who are not truly LD, but just have some academic weakness. (The flip side is that in poor communities kids w/ ADHD go undiagnosed and rather than being offered accommodation, they are shuttled off to special ed.)</p>
<p>Of course, no system is foolproof and that there will always be those unscrupulous or opportunisitc individuals who will gain some unfair advantage. The inevitablilty of abuse at the margins does not, however, warrant denying accommodation to thoes w/ a legit LD diagnosis.</p>
<p>Regarding OP's orig question, you may want to stick w/ the SAT, rather than the ACT. It is much more diff to get extra time on the ACT than on the SAT.</p>
<p>ADHD is a learning difference that special ed should address
( but from experience- it often doesn't)
Learning disabilities don't preclude you from being successful in college
If you need specially designed instruction in high school- you will have an IEP-
If all you need are accomodations then you need a 504 plan
My experience with the college board is that you don't get any accomodations, unless you have a 504 or IEP in high school
Since districts are reluctant to give anything they don't have to, how are people who don't need 504s or IEPs getting them?
I found the college board to be accomodating, yet fairly unflexible.
Example- my daughter has small motor difficulties- but she soldiers on with a mechanical pencil, finding it much easier than a #2 pencil ( and much more legible). She would never consider using a scribe for a test- as that would make her stick out even more.
Although we never realized it would be an issue, the College board insists on using #2 pencils- no mechanical pencils for essays ( although she is allowed some of her other accomodations)
They insist that legibility will not be an issue in grading her essay.
Personally, I find that difficult to believe.</p>
<p>My D had a very hard time getting SAT accomodations even though she had had a medical 504 plan in place for quite a while in the HS. It takes more than that. As for the mechanical pencil, I think I read somewhere here on the boards that they banned them because kids could signal to each other to cheat by clicking the pen.</p>
<p>No I didn't mean it only took a 504- but I was responding to those who were saying that it was easy to get accomodations.
Even though my D had, had an IEP ( which was not legally followed), in her previous school-she has a 504 in her current school & to get that , * I* had to pay for an outside educational psychologist to evaluate her.( even though she had already qualified for more extensive services through the districts own evaluations)</p>
<p>The 504 also does not cover all her areas of disability, although we work with teachers constantly to fill in the gaps.
the college board required the 504 & the educational psychological evaluation ( which was extensive) as well as medical reports from MDs.</p>
<p>While I do believe that inappropriate care is dispensed in this country- for example viagra to young men, antibiotics to those with colds and sleeping pills to those who drink too much coffee- I also wouldn't say that medical care is available and affordable to all that need it, & that there are not those who are not being served.</p>
<p>While I also could agree, that there are a few students and families who misuse the system, preferring to find and pay for professionals who will state they have a disability, when they do not, purely in order to receive extended time on a test- I will also argue that there are many who are not even recognized as needing services & plenty more who receive some, but not enough to truly level the field.</p>
<p>It isn't even about "leveling" the field IMO, but by providing the atmosphere for all to succeed to the best of their ability-
Yes some schools do so, without requiring a diagnosis- possibly that is what is being referred to.</p>
<p>My older daughter attended a private school which allowed for extra time, for breaks, and for other accomodations in class and on tests for all students- that is just part of their teaching style.</p>
<p>However- we were also aware that she had learning challenges when she applied to the school , as indicated on testing and it was also indicated on college applications and her test scores.</p>
<p>Oh, wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if all testing was done without timing? If they just scheduled proctors to be there for 6 or 7 hours, and let every kid do their very best? Most kids would undoubtedly leave in the normal time frame---who would want to sit there for longer than the ridiculous amount of time the SAT takes already unless they had no choice?</p>
<p>My daughters college actually had some tests that were open book, students could take the test to their rooms, or the meadow, just as long as it was back in the teacher box by the alloted time.</p>
<p>Her high school, also permitted students to take as much time as they needed, and some tests even a small note card with "hooks" to help remember material was permitted.</p>
<p>Big difference for her sister in public school. Even though some tests you are allowed the time you need, she feels the pressure, and gets up to leave when everyone else does, not allowing herself time to go over her work.
Also since she has difficulty tracking- I wonder if she gets off with the scantrons, and has bubbles left over :(</p>
<p>I also am not happy with the extended time for the SAT-
by adding the writing portion on- ( which colleges are not using)
it makes it an extremely long time.
Most colleges are not going to require students to take tests under those conditions-and for many students- it wont give an accurate projection of what they can do- simply because most of us don't perform well under stress.</p>
<p>what about a person like me who tends to mix and read numbers wrong, whenerver I do a calculation it is a must I do it 2 times, because about 30% of the time I have a mix up, so thats why I have extended time.</p>
<p>I tried not to use extended time when i first started with engineering in college, My grades were round 30's-40's. the tests just had so much material and my double checking slowed me down alot. I got a 100% extension and my grades are now 90's. Its not that I dont know the material, I really do understand it, and when I do the problems its not my fault I am at a disadvantage. I am just glad I live in a country where I was not thrown in a ally to eat dirt and I can prosper here even with my disability.</p>
<p>D was able to get extra time on SAT and accommodations based solely on the existance of current psych eval indicating LD. Whe D begar to struggle in sch, I sought eval to see whether she had any learning issues and when eval revealed that she did, her sch complied w/ every one of the psych's recs. While the eval itself was time-consuming and rather expensive, the sch's compliance and getting SAT extra time couldn't have been easier (in fact standardized test ombudsperson at sch completed the forms).</p>
<p>My point was simply that considering the amout of time and $ many parents spend on SAT prep/tutors, the time and expense of the psych eval (which may reaveal other helpful info) is a drop in the bucket. And the easy process, even if it doesn't encourage abuse, certainly doesn't affirmatively or, IMO, sufficient discourage it either.</p>
<p>I'm not a big fan of timed testing b/c it artificial. My exams in college were all honor code and almost all take home. With rare exceptions (Art History, I beleve which required the showing of slides in an audiitorium), one could ask for and would most likely be granted extra time. </p>
<p>I haven't found real life to require an awful lot of one or two-hour deadlines. And as noted in an earlier post, LD adults and college students skip dinner and recreational activities or make other indiv accommodations in order to have enough time to accomplish their assigned tasks. Heck, in the real world there's nothing wrong with asking the guy next to you for help. Moreover, and knowing when to ask for help and not being afraid or too vain to ask for help are seen as positive attributes.</p>