<p>My kids are at a typical suburban-nice-but-not-OMG-outstanding public hs. Graduating class somewhere around 500 or so. Just like I did in my day, they've got a GC who is a pleasant enough person, but there's no way in hell she can possibly "know" them. She has her hands full with kids who need <em>real</em> help (emotional issues, social issues, etc.), most of the kids here just want to go to our flagship or directional universities anyway, and while I'm sure she would try to be helpful, I just don't really get a sense that her role is much beyond moving the appropriate paperwork from point A to point B. (And frankly I'm getting far more advice and insight from CC.) And really, how can she? She's got over 100 kids. She's met my kids maybe 2 or 3 for 15 minutes each just to go over schedules. It would be absolutely ludicrous to think that we should be so important to her that she should devote tons of time getting to know my kids. </p>
<p>I find it really hard to believe that colleges don't know that this is a common situation (it is for almost every public school kid or grad I know, except those who went to really outstanding public schools where the GC only had college responsibilities, not counseling responsibilities). So there's one part of me which thinks this is all total garbage anyway, that all this woman is going to do is open my kids' files, write some platitudes about how they must be good kids and smart and hard-working and their teachers like them and they would be asset to fill-in-the-blank-college and blah de blah blah blah.</p>
<p>How do you deal with this kind of situation? My kids are not the student-leaders-with-fingers-in-every-pie types. They won't be "known" except through their academic records as good students. Yeah, I could direct my kids to go hang around the GC office and try to make her their new BFF, but that all seems so fake, too. I'm feeling jaded. Thoughts on how to deal with this when it comes to rec time? How to cultivate someone for the sole purpose of a good rec and not because there's that much intrinsic value? Ugh. I don't want to be a user, but that's the game, sadly. Thanks in advance.</p>
<p>See, when I hear stories like this, I’m genuinely surprised because I go to public school, and I know my guidance counselors very well. The difference from my situation to yours is my graduating class has about 100 kids (if that) each year, making my school have a little less than 400 students TOTAL. </p>
<p>While that makes it a little bit easier to know the guidance counselor, I still felt the need to personally know them. What I did was take a genuine interest in the pamphlets and other things they had in the guidance office (such as Next Magazine). The college GC was surprised that I wanted to take one, as no one really ever did, and they were basically there to look nice. I’d stop in every couple of weeks or so, see if she had any new magazines or information on summer programs, etc. </p>
<p>While these might seem like small or minute things, this is what I did to get my GC to really notice me. I’m a rising senior, and we know each other really well now. :)</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, i read CC often and rarely comment, but i must say that i completely know where you’re coming from. My own school situation almost replicates the one you describe, save for the fact that my graduating class size is 300. Regardless, it dawned upon me that although i’m on very friendly terms with my GC, she really has no idea who i am, or even the majority of my class for that matter. I honestly don’t know what colleges expect when they ask for recommendations from counselors, simply due to the fact that for most schools their interaction with their kids are minimal. Practically speaking, it seems almost unfair for a college to expect a GC to make a reasonable judgement about the character and quality of a student they see maybe a combined hour throughout their four years in high school.</p>
<p>While I personally was able to get on good terms with my counselor thanks to a student volunteer program run by the Counseling department, this was definitely not the case for most of the people in my class of 700+. Here are a couple things I picked up from my experience working there:</p>
<p>While I don’t mean to sound insensitive to the kids with more pressing issues, I feel like your kids are fully within their right to go in and kindly ask to make an appointment to discuss scheduling and college plans, if necessary, so that at least he or she can mentally file you under ‘Will need recommendation’ and not be totally surprised when you suddenly pop the recommendation question. Other than that, I think the best your kids can do is to try to be kind and easy to work with as possible in all their encounters with the counselor (Counselors, at least the ones at my HS, were super overworked, especially during college app season) and try prepare their materials as well as possible before coming in (e.g. stickies with special reminders, consolidated address lists, different applications all separated from each other etc.) </p>
<p>Also, at least at my school, the counselors ask for 3 teacher recommendations (read: not necessarily the ones going directly to the colleges) in the “college app packet” they ask of seniors applying to college, and I’m pretty sure they try to incorporate some of the teachers’ input into their letter.</p>
<p>All that said, there are just some things you can’t expect of public HS counselors. I absolutely loved my counselor, and am sad that she lost her job because of budget cuts at our school (and all CA schools). But when I brought her my list of requisite UCs as well as fairly reputable OOS schools and she pointblank told me she hadn’t ever heard of most of them. While I appreciate her honestly and I understand that the vast majority of people at my school attend in-state public schools, I feel like counselors should at least have a cursory knowledge of alternatives to UCs and CSUs. Perhaps I’m biased because I attend an LAC, but it seems like only the tippy top of the class applies to any private schools, and even then mostly Ivies or other really prestigious school. But I feel like these relative go-getters may or may not be the only students who would really benefit from a small, private college experience. But that’s really a topic for another thread. [/end rant]</p>
<p>Anyway, back to the point. Do I think utilizing the counselor’s services and treating him or her nicely is the most groundbreaking advice? No. But I would feel better knowing I did the best I could to make a good impression and made someone else’s life hectic life a little bit easier.</p>
<p>Ask some older students or their parents how this situation is handled at your kids’ high school.</p>
<p>In many instances, early in senior year or the summer before, the guidance counselors have all college-bound students fill out a form that asks for information about their interests, accomplishments, and activities (informally known as a “brag sheet”) and then has a meeting with the student to discuss college matters further (the parent may be included in part of the meeting for a three-way discussion of finances). The counselor then uses the brag sheet and his/her notes from this meeting as the basis for a recommendation.</p>
<p>Is it phony? Yes. Is it necessary? Also, yes.</p>
<p>Similar situation. I made an appointment to meet with GC a week or two before school opened. This was for both D and myself to sit down with her and talk. After that, anytime D and I had a question, it was up to D to go to the GC and ask so she would get the “facetime” in. Sometimes I would follow up with an email thanking the GC. </p>
<p>As for the “brag sheet” mentioned, a good friend of mine is a GC at another HS in our district and tells me that some people never turn them in. Most parents just answer the questions on the sheet. A handful of parents (she has maybe 4-5 a year) type up an additional page or two and elaborate. This is what she did for her own children and what I did for mine.</p>
<p>D was in the same situation last year - we had only met with GC once per year to do schedule planning. Our GC’s do request info/feedback from teachers to use in their letters. D gave GC a resume, list of college with addresses and phone/fax numbers and the dates/methods she was using to apply (she did this for her teacher LOR’s too). She also included names of the teachers she planned to ask for LOR’s from. She did this early (I think Sept) before the GC was “in the weeds” with doing everyone’s forms and kept GC updated on acceptances, scholarships, etc. (with copies that GC could just glance at and add to folder). GC commented several times that she was impressed with D’s organization and follow through and wrote a very nice LOR (I saw it much later) and also recommended her for several local scholarships, which she won. </p>
<p>I thought this type of thing is done frequently, but GC told me that D was the one of the very few who came in on their own and prepared. So, it possible for a good kid who hasn’t had much need for guidance to forge a good working relationship in their senior year. I think that D’s approach of being proactive and making things easier for the GC went a long way in building that relationship. Btw, this also seemed to benefit my younger son who has the same GC - she easily spent 3x the norm planning his schedule this year!</p>
<p>I think the main purpose of the GC recommendation is to let colleges know if there’s a “bad apple”. After all, the GC is the one that sees their permanent record. I doubt any colleges think that most GC’s know every student.</p>
<p>I also hope that colleges are aware of the huge discrepancies in hs counseling departments. Ours, at a high-performing suburban hs, is very good - but even there, where each of 7 counselors is responsible for more than 200 students, there’s a range of ability and commitment. My 2 youngest kids were lucky to have a woman who made it her job to get to know each of her students personally. She stands outside her office during the period between classes every day, talking to the kids as they pass by. She really makes the effort to establish some kind of relationship with her students, and is always telling them to drop into her office with any issues or problems.</p>
<p>I think it’s completely legitimate for a parent to request an appointment with the student’s GC. I personally wouldn’t be comfortable taking up the counselor’s time just to get acquainted; I’d have a list of questions related to the college search, possibly even a list of schools for the counselor’s evaluation. No, I wouldn’t expect the GC to be as knowledgeable as a private counselor or the folks here on CC, but I’d listen carefully for what he/she did know - some of them are really savvy. And they know way more than we do about their own school’s process - deadlines, how recommendations are done, etc. The point of the meeting is for the GC to know your own kid just a bit better.</p>
<p>With all 3 ds, I met once with the GC at the end of junior year with the student, then once at the beginning of senior year for a brief meeting without the student. This was to give the GC a chance to tell me honestly if she thought my kids’ lists were way out of reach, without the issue of protecting the kids’ feelings.</p>
<p>I think GCs have a very tough job and are usually unappreciated for what they do. It’s not realistic to think that a GC at a large public school will be able to write the same kind of exquisitely modulated and personalized rec letter turned out by a college counselor at a private school. My common sense tells me that colleges must recognize that.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl:
I have no idea what their GCs wrote about my two kids, but I felt that they were both extremely supportive. We were too new to the college application process to know what to do about the brag sheet. We wrote three words, trying to describe S1, and that was it. And it was not bragging in the least, more along the lines of “shy,” “thoughtful.” We did not need to fill out a brag sheet for S2 as he was all too well known by his GC since he needed multiple visits to sort out his schedule every year.
They each had the same GC all four (or three with S2) years of school. With S1, we had a discussion of his schedule every year. One time I asked her whether he should not be taking one class instead of the one she had suggested and she said she’d worked out his schedule to get him into an AP class taught by the best teacher (which turned out to be true) We only met her once at our own request rather than as part of her regular schedule of meetings with parents, when I wanted her advice about a teacher who was proving unsatisfactory. Her response: “I know about this teacher. I can’t do anything about it, but you should petition.” We followed her advice and within a couple of weeks, S1 had a new teacher. When came time to think about colleges, we had another meeting and this is when we discussed S1’s personality and the type of schools that might best fit him. She consulted with another GC and they came up with a list of schools. She correctly predicted the reaches, matches and safeties. Years later, I bumped into her and she still remembered S1, despite the fact that he probably never went to her office unless he had some paper that needed her signature. Maybe all she wrote in her rec was very generic, but I get the feeling that she knew quite a bit about individual students, probably from teachers. She was one of several GCs in the school, and one of two that were considered outstanding. S1 was very fortunate to be assigned to her.
This contrasts with the experience of a classmate of S2’s, who was told by her GC at the beginning of senior year: “I don’t know you well enough [after three years!] to suggest appropriate colleges; you should do your own research.” And the girl was a pretty good student!
So let us hope that your child’s GC is like my kids’ GCs!</p>
<p>I’m sure that colleges are well aware that the counseling departments of large public schools are extremely overworked and understaffed. </p>
<p>Our school is huge - over 900 in S2’s class and I’d there are 12 counselors in all plus the director of Guidance, which means each counselor is in charge of about 300 students. Obviously they can’t get to know any students well except the troublemakers and the superstars. Nevertheless I think they really do a very good job. They installed Naviance and explain the college application process thoroughly starting with smaller group meetings junior year. My son’s “small group” turned out to be one other student last spring and then we met as a family later in the spring. They sponsor big workshops where they explain financial aid and another where they explain the athletic stuff and they have a college night in April aimed at juniors and their parents where they invite admissions officers to makie presentations. They have questionaires for the students to fill out and they have put together a pretty good school profile. They use computer programs to help generate llists of schools for the kids. They are good at passing on tidbits if you are lucky. For example we mentioned GW and S2’s counselor mentioned she’d had two students apply last year. The kid with the lower stats got in because that student had visited and interviewed and the other one hadn’t.</p>
<p>Similar situation to marite and mathmom. GCs with student load of ~450. Both my kids had the same GC who was so good and popular that many other kids came to her as well. For D she was able to recommend for scholarships where only 1 nomination was allowed per school, and did same for others. These were for kids who took the time to get to know her. Said hello in the halls instead of looking away or at the floor. Stopped by her office just to say hi. Left notes (I was here, you were not; talk to you later kind of stuff). HS does provide college night for juniors in the spring and college night for seniors in the fall, but both are poorly attended. Lots fall onto the shoulders of parents. Using info from CC I have given workshops annually to parents and students at each local hs and as to the part of the program dealing with GCs, I tell them Go Early, Go Prepared, Go with Requests, Go back.
BTW in addition to the GCs we also have facilitators for the “gifted” program and one person in particular who really knows the college app process. Her kids get into the top schools and win most of the big scholarships. Her track record is hard to beat in a public hs. Kids not part of her program are always welcomed and she never turns anyone away. Unfortunately, the school system seems to appreciate the efforts of the custodial staff more, but wise parents know better. ;)</p>
<p>S’s school has a “brag sheet” form to give the GC, that includes a space to list 5 adjectives describing the student. This is for the GC, to assist in writing the ref letter, and not sent directly to colleges.</p>
<p>Can anyone point to threads describing good/bad adjectives? Does it even matter since it is the GC that will see the list, and not the school?</p>
<p>Would it be dangerous to include “geeky”? Any suggestions for similar words with more positive connotations?</p>
<p>Our school has about 400 kids in the graduating class. From D’s freshman year, we’ve been meeting with the GC - it started out with scheduling concerns, possibilities for different tracks (school offered an opportunity to take some classes at a local univ) etc. GC knows my D and us fairly well. Now that D is a junior, she takes care of most of the scheduling herself - she was fairly persistent in getting to talk to him at the end of last year to get the classes she wanted for this year. A neighbor’s D is also in the same grade - I doubt that her GC even knows who she is. Several of D’s friends have also said that their GC’s do not know them at all. I think contacting GC in her freshman year, having a short meeting and then following it up with relevant meetings in her sophomore year really helped D’s GC get to know her. Note that I said relevant meetings - they were not meetings just for the sake of meeting, she did have valid concerns - but since she’s been in his office a fair amount, he does know her.</p>
<p>Of course, colleges know about how counseling situations vary in schools. In general, the counselors recc counts for little in college admissions.</p>
<p>The exceptions are places like HPYS, Amherst, etc. However, such colleges also are looking closely at the entire application – including essay, teacher recommendations, quality of the school, etc. They will not count against a student a bland recc from a GC at a school that typically doesn’t have students apply to top colleges. The top colleges know that such schools usually have overburdened GCs who don’t know what to put on reccs for students applying to top colleges.</p>
<p>It always is wise to give one’s GC a copy of one’s application, essay, resume and info about your career and academic goals and why you’re applying to the colleges you’ve chosen.</p>
<p>Then why do they even bother? It’s so pointless. “Gee, we’ll go get ourselves a data point that confirms what we already know – that Joe Elite Prep School has GC’s who really know him intimately and Jane Average Public HS goes to a public school where the GC’s have a couple hundred kids and can only write something beige and vague.” Seriously, what is the point of it, then? Teachers I understand - each kid has a year to get to know a teacher.</p>
<p>They bother because counselor’s can give information that kids and teachers leave out. It might be information about how the school works, how the student compares to other students in the school, about an award, or activities a kid doesn’t even think to include in the application or even something less savory. I know our counselors make an effort to not have their recommendations be beige and vague. My older son’s counselor for example wrote about how mathson helped her figure out how to get the computer to give him the schedule he wanted when she was brand new to the school sophomore year. mathson never even thought twice about it, but she was impressed and mentioned it every time we met with her.</p>
<p>I am certain some colleges are aware of this problem…to an extent! </p>
<p>It is funny how you go through life teaching the high values and morals of being a good, strong, honest individual and then you come to your first big ‘based on acceptance decision’ and it all goes haywire! </p>
<p>This is so hard for many parents because you just want to do all you can for your kids and this is a bit of a roadblock. If your kids aren’t so familiar with the GC, as far as recommendations go, have them focus more on a recommendation written by a close teacher, coach, school mentor, advisor or whatnot. </p>
<p>It is always rewarding reading the nice things people write about you, but in this situation you might have to help the GC out and write a nice letter yourself and have them put their own little stamp of approval on it! </p>
<p>I don’t know if this helps or not, but best of luck regardless!!</p>
<p>The counselor’s recc can include info that isn’t any other place on the app. The counselor, for instance, would know the student’s class rank, whether a student has been suspended, and may know other things that are important that the student didn’t think to include. This could even include major challenges such as a student’s missing school for a month due to illness or a family emergency.</p>
<p>"If your kids aren’t so familiar with the GC, as far as recommendations go, have them focus more on a recommendation written by a close teacher, coach, school mentor, advisor or whatnot. "</p>
<p>You also can make an appointment with the GC and have your kid make an appointment, too.</p>