If he hates the school wouldn’t that support my recommendation they visit? If the child was interested enough to go to the event but then hated the school - without that insight he may have signed up for 4 years.
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Re: the visiting and rowing - thanks all for sharing your thoughts. He did visit all of them, but it was in late August, so I think every school was either move-in day or welcome week or some variant of that. So an odd time to be on campus, but still, got to see campus with students.
There is no way that he will miss any rowing time. Rowing isn’t like other sports where someone can sub in easily for you - the team trains as a group of eight rowers and a coxswain, and if one is missing the entire boat can’t go. You’ve ruined it for everyone. They can sub in from a lower level boat, but with someone who doesn’t know the rhythm and unique feel of that group, subbing generally doesn’t go well. His boat has a strong likelihood of being the state champions this year, and potentially placing pretty well at National’s. He’s been working towards this since he joined the team as an eighth grader, so there’s no way he’d cause any potential harm. Especially because this is likely to be the best he will ever finish and perform as a rower. For something that has taken this much of his life, this is the biggest stage he’ll likely ever be on, and his last chance to shine. While he can row club or on the D3 team at WPI, none of those schools are even close to as competitive as his high school boat, so while he’ll do it for the fitness and friendships, it won’t be for the success. If he wants success, it’s kind of now or never.
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I think that’s good enough. My son attended an admitted students program. It was more about going because other friends were going. I don’t think he learned anything new beyond his first visit. It’s the only school we visited more than once. Based on his ultimate rationale, he would have picked it had he only been once. Sounds like your son has all the data he needs.
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I’d recommend the admitted students day if it provides interesting access and activities. For our S admitted day was actually 3 days and two nights. He got to sleep in a dorm room with a current student for 2 nights, eat in the dining halls, attend a few classes, visit with clubs, and representatives from various labs. It was far different than a campus tour. The admitted students day for our D22, is 4 hours (basically an in person Q&A). Not very worthwhile IMO.
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He should follow the accepted student chats on the ZeeMee app. Follow the schools and the departments on Instagram. On ZeeMee he can probably get added to an accepted student chat.
This could really help him get to know some of the other kids. Get a feel for who he might be in school with.
Ha. Yesterday at an Admitted Students Day at Case one our tour guides said it’s a school of Ivy League rejects. Yup he said it. He followed up by saying many would say they love Case and it all worked out. But still …
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So our dilemma has changed. In at Michigan, Duke and Cornell. We are floored and absolutely cannot afford them. We know we’re lucky that we can afford Purdue, and cash flow the extra at Case (which comes in just over 50 for us with merit). Is Cornell worth double Purdue? My husband would say no. My son is contemplating yes, and taking the loans. It’s a lot of loans. I had law school loans and it was not pretty (I’m not a working lawyer - if I was we wouldn’t be in this situation). We started this process really cost aware and allowed a Cornell application as my family all attended and Duke was thrown in as a Hail Mary thinking there is some merit sometimes …. (He did actually get 3k merit from Duke, but that’s a drop in the bucket). But boy is it tempting. Lots of thinking to do. Or, maybe I go back to being a lawyer ….
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Worth it for what? For bragging at a cocktail party about going to an Ivy, then yes. For actual ROI and career opportunities, then no. I would go where one could come out debt free, then go to grad school, which in engineering is usually free and students are given a stipend to TA.
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Of course, I know debt free is a very important goal. Purdue is not the best fit fit my super quiet, anti-Greek, liberal, Jewish kid. It is an amazing program but he is very, very concerned about it socially. You are not guaranteed your engineering major choice - and Aero/Mech E are super competitive. And, if for some reason he decides engineering isn’t fit him, the ROi/job prospects etc. change. Not to put down Purdue, there’s lots to love about it, but there are risks. Cornell feels like a better fit socially, guaranteed major, if you transfer out of engineering - it’s still got great ROI, etc. And, it’s more of a liberal environment and much much closer to home (and drivable, no flying). My son’s head is saying one thing and his heart is saying another.
The thing that surprised S18 the most was how low the yield was for Case (16% IIRC). They were also (not coincidentally) by far the most persistent of all his admits in sending near daily emails both to him and us.
I wouldn’t rate Duke or Michigan above Purdue for engineering. I don’t see great fits either based on your description of DS (and as you seem to imply).
Cornell could be worth it, especially if he likes the vibe. Has he been to campus and seen the Mech E/Aero E facilities? If not, perhaps he should visit the campus, and you could have the money discussion after that.
Cornell Engineering requires a major affiliation sophomore year. I assume like Purdue, this isn’t guaranteed.
Cornell’s GPA benchmark for declaring a major is lower than Purdue’s. Basically C or higher. That said, 94% of Purdue students get their first choice major. It was a seamless transition for my child. If @gingerlenny’s child was a BME major I’d be more concerned about the transition to major at Purdue but not for AA or Mech E.
Cornell also has a stronger Greek presence in social life than Purdue.
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The difference is that Purdue requires 3.2 college GPA to guarantee choice of engineering major (competitive otherwise). Cornell’s catalog lists college GPA thresholds for each major, but they are all 2.something.
Any loans greater than $5.5-7.5k per year would be parent loans or parent cosigned loans. So you would be taking the loans for money you apparently cannot afford.
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We were in a similar spot last year for my D. She didn’t apply to Duke, UofM, or Purdue, but she was accepted to another Ivy, UChicago, GT, and USC. Because of COVID we couldn’t visit and instead did a ton of research. We scoured linkedin, joined every parent and student chat or FB group, and asked a ton of friends for advice. Her are some tips that I hope help.
Your kid was accepted to a lot of excellent schools, so Cornell wasn’t a fluke. What they presented to colleges was impressive. Also, all of these schools are great and will give him an excellent education. Therefore, pick the one that he will thrive at, make great friends, push himself, and grow.
Why does he want to be an engineer? My D didn’t really have a great answer and it ended up that she was interested because she was good at math. This led us to value schools where she could switch to something completely different and still have an excellent outcome. For your list I think Duke and UofM have an advantage here.
Ok, now for some negative stuff. Cornell is obviously great, but here is why she eventually passed on it. Engineering is rigorous and requires a lot of time, and Cornell is one of the most rigorous. Parents and students suggested to really immerse herself in the liberal arts requirements, the social scene, and do well in engineering she should consider stretching to 5 years. We didn’t have the money for that! Honestly I think a lot of top engineering schools have the same problem, but Cornell was the worst about it.
This next one depends on where he eventually wants to live. We felt like the prestige factor was far more important in the NE, but since we live in Colorado and my D has zero interest in the NE prestige wasn’t a very big deal. For us, it was more about internships and jobs, and Cornell was more into reaching out to alumni vs a Purdue type career services. Maybe we’re just too practical, but that mattered to us. fwiw when we talked to USC comp sci students their real world intel was really impressive, and I have hunch Purdue and UofM might be similar.
Anyway, I hope that helps!
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Thank you. This is all very helpful.
We live in NY. We looked hard at the placement for jobs at Purdue and while some go back to NY, the majority do not. While he thinks he’d like to end up here, he knows many opportunities in his chosen field are not here. We will need to research this for Cornell.
Another thing impacting this is our family. My brother, father, uncle, aunt and many cousins all went to Cornell. I refused but ended up there for Law School.
We do know about the loans being ours. But of course my son would have some responsibility - another thing to drill down on.
Thanks everyone for your help. We are researchers and just feel behind the eight ball for Cornell as we didn’t think it was realistic.
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I can’t overstate the power of graduating debt free. Choosing Cornell over Purdue will be a drag on your son’s finances forever. That’s not hyperbole. It’s just compounding math.
A student graduating debt free, who continues to live frugally like a college student for a bit can fully fund their 401k immediately. Their earnings will eventually catch up and allow them to live like adults. No matter how they live, it will be unlikely that they can do that if they have to service debt. They will never catch up.
If a family has the cash to make that decision, that’s one thing. If it’s leveraged, especially to the tune of double the cost, it never makes sense no matter the school.
There are at least two Jewish fraternities. My son was mostly not attracted to Greek life, but just so he made sure he turned over the rock, he went through rush (not at Purdue). He didn’t end up pledging, but he said his favorite guys were ZBTs. Were he Jewish, he would have unquestionably joined.
Purdue is big. He will find friends and support.
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Re: Duke, Michigan and Cornell - "We are floored and absolutely cannot afford them. " You seem to have your answer. Hopefully, you were very clear with your son about your top budget before he sent out the applications to Duke, Michigan,and Cornell. You now seem to be in a tough spot. Good luck!
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Oh we were very clear. Built his list around buyers like Case. Just threw in a few figuring who knows … I hope I don’t sound like those “my kid got into his dream school but we can’t afford it or we are shocked at the price” parents. He had no dream school on purpose. He knew the impact of loans. He knew our budget.
Some loans are not the end of the world - we just have to figure out exactly how much he’d need and if we think it’s worth the investment. He’s thinking he could take up to his expected first year salary. Of course they’d be our responsibility but he’d be expected to contribute.
Thanks again all.