How to Proceed w/Admissions Mistake?

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Hi all,</p>

<p>Just wanted to get some input about an issue I'm going to be facing soon in my graduate admissions process.</p>

<p>Around the end of Spring 2011, I was expelled from a Top 10 IR undergraduate program I'd transferred into due to unsatisfactory academic performance. Panicked, that summer, I "transferred" again to my local state university—but omitted the Top 10 IR program transcripts, only submitting the transcripts from the first university I'd been to.</p>

<p>I got in.</p>

<p>Fast-forward a few months later to Spring 2012. I'm taken to hospital due to a health issue, and am diagnosed with Bipolar, explaining the reason why I was unable to perform at Top 10 IR program. I accepted, and am still taking, medication + therapy.</p>

<p>Fast-forward to the present, I'm doing great in school, am about to get published, and am looking to apply to top law programs after I graduate from undergrad.</p>

<p>The issue, as is likely obvious by now, is the omission of transcript information from my state university transfer admission application. Being clear-headed now, I understand that what I did can likely be classified as fraudulent admission—very likely, in my opinion, putting a significant block in my academic future.</p>

<p>I believe wholeheartedly in my ability to succeed in a top law program, and want very much to be able to talk to law school admissions counselors about this issue and receive advice on best steps to take without too much judgment.</p>

<p>However, I have heard horror stories where people in similar situations have been found out, are blacklisted at their university and other universities, have been sued for "stealing" financial aid from that school, and, summarily, have their lives ruined as a result. I don't want this to happen to me.</p>

<p>I'd like to get input from someone on what my next steps should be. Given that I'm doing great work now, but have this issue, I am scared stiff of pursuing any kind of scholarships that might help me to pay for graduate school—and while I believe in my ability to perform at high levels given I continue my medication + therapy regimen, I am skeptical of my chances of getting into a good program without this proverbial Sword of Damocles dropping from the ceiling. I would very, very much appreciate any input from anyone willing to give it.</p>

<p>(yes, I know I'm probably ****ed if I apply; I need constructive input, not obvious information)</p>

2

<p>Testing for understanding:</p>

<p>You attended school A where you left due to unsatisfactory academic performance</p>

<p>You then transferred to school B, a Top 10 IR undergraduate program where you were expelled.</p>

<p>You are currently at school C, your local state university, where you are doing well.</p>

<p>The net-net is this:</p>

<p>You will have to submit to the LSAC transcripts from every single school school you have attended. There are no exceptions.</p>

<p>You will also have to disclose that you were expelled from school B. If you were placed on academic probation at School A, you would have to disclose that also.</p>

<p>Willful misrepresentation would be grounds for having your admissions rescinded or if not caught in the admissions process the degree would eventually be rescinded because of the fraudulent admissions. Everything will eventually come out when you apply for the bar and you will find yourself not being able to be admitted. It will come out when you apply for financial aid Most grad school financial aid is in the form of loans and they will run a credit report. If you have 7k in unpaid debt, the school has probably placed you in collections to recover their money.</p>

<p>Your best best is to settle your debt at school B, get your transcripts, submit them apply to law school and let the process play itself out. </p>

<p>It does not make sense for you to try to circumvent this because all you will be left with is a worthless piece of paper and 200k of debt.</p>

3

<p>Be honest. You may not get into a too school, but its better than being disgraced from being kicked out.</p>

4

<p>sybbie:</p>

<p>My read is this:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>OP did well at school A, at least well enough to transfer to school B (top tier IR program).</p></li>
<li><p>OP was thn dismissed from school B for academic performance.</p></li>
<li><p>OP then transferred to school C (“local state” Uni) based on school A’s grades. (OP did not report school B’s grades/dismissal to school C).</p></li>
</ul>

<p>Fast forward a few years later, OP is about to “graduate” from School C (to which OP was admitted under false pretenses). </p>

<p>Thus, two BIG issues:</p>

<p>1) School C’s acceptance was based on incomplete info (transcript/dismissal records from school B purposely not submitted). </p>

<p>2) OP considering law school (app), which will of course need to show all transcripts/records.</p>

<p>Thus (IMO), OP should seek legal counsel from someone who is extremely knowledgeable about school C admissions/policies/procedures and see how OP can fess up, grovel for mercy, and still obtain a diploma from school C.</p>

<p>Only at that point, can the OP worry about rocking the LSAT to be considered for a “top” LS.</p>

5

<p>I agree with bluebayou. You need to straighten out the issue with your current university before even contemplating applying to law school. You were dishonest when applying to that school and that needs to be rectified in whatever manner necessary. If you owe $$ to the previous school, that will likely need to be paid in order for you to secure the necessary transcripts. Transcripts from any and all schools attended have to be submitted for law school admissions, with no exceptions. There is no way around this and if you choose to lie again, well, that would be extremely foolish. Trust and integrity issues are what will prevent you from ever being called to the Bar. You need to start by seeking advice and assistance in rectifying your initial lie, and confirm that you will actually be granted a degree, before worrying about any possibility for law school.</p>

6

<p>I was so caught up in the first part of the question, I forgot about the fact that he has to resolve his current problem at hand; ensuring that he does get a degree from the school he now attends (and not being kicked out for misrepresentation).</p>

7

<p>BlueBayou & AlwaysAMom: My family’s not rich. How do I go about seeking legal advice to rectify my situation at my current school?</p>

8

<p>If you are currently attending a school that has a law school, check to see if they have a student run law clinic. They may be able to provide you with some initial advice or point you in the right direction. If that isn’t a possibility, perhaps you can discuss it with your academic advisor or Dean of Students, to start the ball rolling. The other possibility is to check with the Bar Association in your state. It’s possible that they have a referral service which may allow for a free initial consultation. I know that that is available in some areas. Good luck to you.</p>

9

<p>

</p>

<p>Or even a neighboring law school. </p>

<p>But IMO you really need someone with expertise in college education administration and preferably, someone who has dealt with your college regarding student dismissals (for cause). That person will not be free. But your local law clinic might be able to refer you to local counsel that does have this expertise.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>That is the last person to whom I would go. Depending on the college and its rules (which they may or may not share with you), the Dean could bounce you right out of school, today! (Do not pass go, do not receive a tuition refund.) Then you would have to seek counsel to get reinstated. Much better to get your ducks in a row with someone outside who is knowledgeable about the college first. That way you can present your best case on Day 1.</p>

<p>btw: OP, (reading your other threads)…yes, you will (likely) have to pay off the debt that you owe to college B before you ever obtain a transcript from them. And don’t even think about applying to LS without that transcript.</p>

10

<p>I think there is very little likelihood that the OP can get admitted to a “top” law school any time soon. There is also very little chance that OP will be admitted to the bar until at least 8 years or so years elapse from whenever (s)he straightens out the underlying issue. I respectfully suggest that the OP consider a different career, at least for now.</p>

<p>I don’t think anyone is going to buy the argument that being bi-polar is what caused the OP to lie to the third college and omit the fact (s)he had attended college #2. Yes, being bi-polar can explain bad grades. But is the OP claiming that (s)he had no idea of what (s)he was doing when he failed to tell college 3 about college 2? That is what this language suggests:</p>

<p>

If that is in fact the case and a psychiatrist will explain that to college 3 and the bar’s character and fitness committee, then I take back the statement above. However, I think the OP lied while knowing full well that (s)he was doing so. If that’s the case, then I think a character and fitness committee will deny him/her admission, at least until a # of years have elapsed.In any event, if the OP does apply to law school or the bar,
and knew that (s)he was lying when (s)he failed to disclose attendance at college B to college C, I would avoid statements like this because it sure doesn’t sound as if the OP is the least bit contrite. </p>

<p>It’s also going to be hard to get into a “top” law school without counting the grades from college B. If they were bad enough to get the OP dismissed, his/her cumulative GPA is unlikely to be high enough to get into a “top” law school. </p>

<p>Now, this doesn’t mean I think OP should give up the idea of going to law school forever, if that’s what (s)he really wants to do. I think (s)he should consult an attorney not only to find out whether there’s some way to report him-/herself to college C now and mitigate the damage of reporting that (s)he applied under false pretenses, but also because if there is any question on the FAFSA or any other financial aid forms about prior colleges attended and OP lied, (s)he may have committed a crime and I doubt the statute of limitations has run on that. (S)he may have to step forward and admit that (s)he committed perjury if (s)he did in fact do so. I don’t know much about this…and think the OP needs to see an attorney who does. I do think if (s)he lied when (s)he applied for fin aid at college C, there’s a chance (s)he will be denied aid for law school. </p>

<p>Thus I would suggest that OP wait at least a few years before applying to law school. If OP applies immediately, I suspect that both law schools and bar character and fitness committees will conclude that (s)he ONLY came forward and told the truth because (s)he was afraid of getting caught when (s)he applied to law school. If some time elapses, and OP has no further problems, I think his/her chances of getting through character and fitness will improve. </p>

<p>I know this is not what OP wants to hear. I know of 3 people with felony convictions–a much worse situation that this–who were admitted to law school. 1 is still in school. 1 tried and failed to get admitted to the bar after spending 3 years and $150,000 on law school in the mistaken belief that if he disclosed everything when applying to law school and got in that meant he could get admitted to the bar. The third was admitted and is now a partner in a top firm. He took 3 bar exams, passed all of them and applied for admission. 2 of the 3 states denied him admission. One let him in.</p>

11

<p>

</p>

<p>Knowing two Deans of Students, I inquired of both this hypothetical, and both suggested this if legal advice was not easily obtained. I asked about the possible consequences, and both said that there is certainly a process in place for dealing with issues like this but at neither school would anything close to what you are suggesting is a possibility, ever happen. Clearly, this is anecdotal but in this student’s situation, he may not have as many options as one would hope.</p>

12

<p>If the student does decide to see the dean or someone else at the college (s)he currently attends, again, I would urge him/her to avoid saying anything like “I didn’t know it was wrong to lie on the forms because I was bi-polar”–that’s what’s implied in the first post --UNLESS at least one shrink will say in writing that the OP was too mentally ill to know what (s)he was doing. </p>

<p>In other words, I think anyone will be sympathetic to the idea that the OP’s academic performance slid due to undiagnosed mental illness and that is why the grades at School B weren’t so great–IF that is in fact the reason. IMO, and granted my opinion isn’t important, nobody is going to just take the OP’s word for the fact that (s)he couldn’t tell right from wrong because she was bi-polar. Do NOT make the claim unless you can prove it. I think bluebayou is right on the $–talking this through with someone and get advice on how best to present the story before you present it. </p>

<p>I don’t think anyone is going to be sympathetic to the kid who just plain lied when (s)he applied, knew that (s)he was lying, and now wants to claim that (s)he couldn’t tell right from wrong because (s)he is bi-polar. If that is REALLY the case, i.e., the mental illness was so severe you forgot you went to College B, then have some strong proof of that in hand before you meet with anyone from your college and make that claim. If you can not get at least that much proof that you were unable to tell right from wrong, do NOT make the argument that you were.</p>

13

<p>AlwaysaMom: What do you mean that I don’t have very many options? Do you mean that a Dean of Students can’t expel me right out just for disclosing to them? Or do you mean that after telling them, my options will become severely constrained?</p>

14

<p>More importantly—would it make sense to graduate first, and then square this matter with my university <em>after</em> I’ve received my diploma and gotten a job?</p>

15

<p>Your options are limited NOW because you can’t afford legal advise specific to this situation and if you tell the school (before graudating or after) then they can revoke your admission and kick you out.</p>

<p>Also- there have been high profile stories (Harvard Business School comes to mind) of people graduating or near-graduation who were discovered to have false applications. They not only had their degree revoked (or kicked out), some have been fined or sued. And while your advisor might seem like a nice guy, you don’t know that he won’t immediately go tell your dean.</p>

<p>You can try to get a medical letter, but even that isn’t a 100% certainty. The fact of the matter is, there is no “squaring the matter” with your school. At no point will they be okay with it.</p>

16

<p>alwaysamom:</p>

<p>depends on the college. UVa, for example, has a strict honor code. I would think that falsification of admission transcripts cannot result in anything but a dismissal for cause. From a legal standpoint, it is akin to theft if financial aid was involved, or at the very least, fraud.</p>

<p>Granted, plenty of colleges/counselors may look the other way, but I would not assume that to be the case.</p>

17

<p>This is a huge fudging and lying of credentials. Honestly, I wouldn’t worry about getting into a top law school. I would worry about getting a lawyer and being able to graduate from your college, without getting expelled/ sued/ whatever.</p>

<p>In most cases, if found guilty of falsely presenting admissions materials (of which transcript is the largest component), most universities will kick you out or rescind your diploma even after graduation.</p>

<p>As suggested by others, you should really lawyer up. And, honesty really is the best policy. Everyone could and does lie here and there to a certain extent, but you shouldn’t really cross a line - lying about things of this much substance will come back to bite you with severe consequences.</p>

18

<p>A long time ago, Jean Fetter was in charge of Stanford UG admissions. She wrote a book about the experience. In it, she tells a story. I read the book a long time ago and may have the details wrong , but the gist of the story was this. A young woman was a junior at Stanford, doing well academically. One day, someone from her town came to visit campus. That person said to someone at Stanford that she was so happy to hear that Susie was doing so well at Stanford after flunking out of Smith ?–not sure it was Smith, but another college anyway. Well, whoever heard it said something to Fetter not really reporting it, just mentioned the conversation in passing. Fetter went back and checked the file. No mention of the other college. She called the other college and asked one question–was Susie ever enrolled there. Yes. Susie was expelled from Stanford that day. Her transcript was stamped with words like “expelled due to academic dishonesty.” </p>

<p>Now, I still think the OP should get legal advice. But, I think that it’s probable–I obviously am not in any position to guarantee anything–that the OP will be in a better position if (s)he admits the truth now. If the OP applies for admission to the bar, it’s almost certain to come to light. If the OP chooses another career, the lie on the app to the 3rd college may never come to light. However, it might. For the rest of the OP’s life, (s)he’s going to be waiting for the other shoe to drop.It’s a terrible way to live.</p>

19

<p>^
Even if OP doesn’t pursue a career in law, OP could be found of this fudging of credentials, from employers, since most employers now run a very thorough background check before letting employees start work. In which case, OP would be totally screwed. </p>

<p>On a separate note, I am not sure how applying for admission to the bar will let this come to light, while standard employer background checks won’t. Do they adopt a stricter process of background checks, compared to standard employer background checks? I know that most decently sized companies nowadays outsource their background check process to third parties, which run a very thorough investigation of someone’s background.</p>

<p>What OP needs to find out is whether the standard employer background checks will catch this or not. If yes, OP should lawyer up immediately.</p>

20

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</p>

<p>I meant that it sounds as though you would have difficulty paying for legal advice, when that clearly is what you should be doing at the earliest possible convenience. I cannot comment on what the Dean at your school can or cannot do. I was simply relaying anecdotal information, which I sought solely because you indicated an inability to get legal advice. I do not think that graduating first would make much difference here. It’s an issue that needs to be rectified, and, unfortunately, you will have to deal with the consequences in the best way you can. Your best option, again, is to get legal advice as to how to handle this, and the sooner, the better.</p>

<p>bluebayou, as I said, my comment was anecdotal information, and I wasn’t suggesting that any school would “look the other way”, but rather that there would be a process involved which would include the opportunity for the student to present his case. It’s impossible to know how the OP’s college would deal with this type of disclosure, and, thus, why no anecdotal information, on either end of the spectrum, should be assumed as how it would unfold in this case.</p>