How "top" can a student go with high GPA but few honors/AP?

College Search & Selection
1

My child has pretty good grades; 3.9 UW. But he has only one honors course in his first two years of HS, and will not be on the “most rigorous” track at his high school. He might take one or two AP courses and four honors courses by the time he graduates, out of 20 AP courses and 10 honors courses (fewer honors because some courses are regular or AP, no honors).

Assuming that he manages in the 2000 - 2200 range on the SAT, are there colleges other than Ivies that would “punish” him based on the lack of course rigor? Or are there colleges that would rather have above average but not superstar students with high GPAs and test scores, but have never taken college level material?

We heard for example when my other son was visiting colleges, that Boston U. in particular would “rather have an A student who took an average courseload than a C student who took mostly APs and honors”.

We also would be worried that if his grades were enough to get into an honors program in college where the average GPA and test scores are noticeably lower, he wouldn’t have the preparation to be in an honors program in college. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks!

2

There are lots of excellent schools that would love to have your S. Can you give us more information about 1) what you can afford 2) your state of residence 3) what your S hopes to study and 4) other criteria pertinent to his search (location, size, urban/suburban/small town, etc…)

3

It does depend on which honors and AP courses he chose. If they are in the more rigorous core academic courses (e.g. English, math through calculus), then he may be more prepared for college than someone who loaded up on the less rigorous (at most high schools) ones like AP human geography, AP statistics, AP psychology, etc. but chose regular courses in subjects like English and math.

4

Taking no advanced classes in a year and one the next, then two each the last two years shows the student chooses not to be challenged. It would then be highly unusual for that same student to score in the top 1-2% of SAT test takers nationwide.

As a parent, why would you believe your child would want to then go to a rigorous college? If that is the goal, perhaps step up the rigor junior / senior year.

5

We were just at a BU visit and they specifically mentioned a rigorous course load (APs, honors) as an important part of admitted student profile.

6

“are there colleges other than Ivies that would “punish” him based on the lack of course rigor?”

Yes, all highly selective colleges will look for students who challenge themselves, but that doesn’t mean they would never take an A student with less rigor. What is the reason that he’s chosen this track and doesn’t plan to move up? If he prefers this level of challenge, he’s probably a better fit for the schools that aren’t troubled by this curriculum.

7

He’d probably have at least a decent shot at all but about 25-30 research universities and 20-25 LACs.
Subtract those top ~50 schools, and you’re left with many other options. Besides BU, other East Coast research universities in the USNWR top hundred include: Northeastern, American, GW, UMiami, and many state flagships such as UMass, UConn, Vermont, Delaware, Maryland, etc. Then there are many small colleges like Connecticut College, Union, Dickinson, Juniata, Goucher, etc., and “regional” colleges/universities such as Loyola-MD and Providence College. If admission is the only issue, there are many other options for a student with a 3.9 UW GPA and scores in the 2000-2200 range.

8

I think you’re looking at this from the wrong perspective. Instead of looking for how “high” up the ladder your son can go, why not put together the best program for him and see where that leads? If he has no interest in more rigorous classes, or they would limit the amount of material he can actually learn, then I’d let him take the classes that are appropriate for him and find colleges that are a fit based on who he is.

9

Thanks for the comments.

“Taking no advanced classes in a year and one the next, then two each the last two years shows the student chooses not to be challenged.”
It was NOT his choice. He is on the autism spectrum, but you would not know it meeting him, except that amorphous requirements led to a poor 8th grade math grade so he can never go back on the highest math track. Our school is extremely limited on students in AP classes, especially math where the supervisor breaks the rules of his own accord. The kinds of things he does poorly with are “creative” assignments where the teacher explains what he wants but doesn’t write it in the instructions, and then my son gets poor grades on a project which is a gimme for many more “typical” kids. Let’s just say that math in college doesn’t have drawing and poster projects.

He has tested through the roof in the past, perfect math scores on standardized tests before HS.

We heard the BU comment during a presentation, by a BU administrator, last year. Specifically, they said “we don’t want AP students who get a C in their AP classes” and my oldest son did get into RPI with a D and multiple Cs, but a very rigorous courseload. BU was not off the charts of him in terms of overall weighted GPA or test scores. They seemed to be pushing “it’s okay to have a not as rigorous as possible courseload” last year. YMMV.

So in short, the reason is the high school has a lot of little emperors, whereas the district next door lets ALL students take at least one AP class if they want to, and will let many more students into many AP courses, and they are nationally ranked (and we aren’t). Go figure.

We are in NJ, and are considering mostly East Coast, not too much further north than NJ but probably not further south than the Carolinas.

He is currently at an A- in his only honors class. I don’t think he wants, and I don’t think we want based on my experience teaching college, to be at a college where most of the student body is unmotivated and is not prepared for college. Even with few AP and honors courses, he will have all three sciences and finish up with calculus at least. I teach at a college with many kids coming in taking pre-calc for the first time freshman year of college, and have missed one or more of the three sciences.

Also - are there any online only bachelor’s degree programs out there that are real choices? He will get accommodations in college, but it might help to at least start online.

Is anyone familiar with this university?
http://www.fullsail.edu/degrees/online/web-design-development-bachelors

10

Full Sail is a for-profit university. I would stay away.

11

Sorry, also:

  • he wants to study computers at this point (has one other career interest, but it wouldn’t be a college path)
  • he is not social, so would be happy in any size town, probably not extremely urban unless the campus was pretty closed off
  • we can afford college for him, based on estimates of FA and having more than one in college at a time; most expensive private colleges with poor aid would be off the list, but that’s true for many people; he probably could get help if he needed it from his grandfather because of his disability

I’m not sure if I want rigor as much as giving him the opportunity to study a variety of subjects, so computer science at a liberal arts school might be an option. A tech school with a poor selection of liberal arts (no offense to RPI, but…) would not be a good fit for him, from what I see of what he likes.

And is sophomore year too early to look at a few colleges?

When I say “top” I am really asking about above mediocre (like the state school I teach at which is brimming with struggling students who are ill-prepared, that’s mediocre).

Northeastern looks like a decent match, based on SAT and GPA. Thanks for the idea, and I’ll be looking at a few others.

12

Full Sail does not have the best reputation here in Florida . . . very expensive, graduating with lots of debt/not many job opportunities.

13

Despite what might seem the norm on this website, the average HS student taking AP courses takes no more than between 2 and 4 over the course of high school. Having a 3.9 GPA, a handful of AP’s and solid test scores would probably be enough for your son to get accepted to the vast majority of colleges. The East Coat public universities that are stronger with more academically focused students would be U.Maryland College Park, William & Mary and UVA. At this point in time the on-line colleges are interesting and could potentially supplement a traditional 4 year degree but I don’t think employers accept them widely enough. For profit colleges are probably fine for the trades but their focus seems to be more profit than education so I wouldn’t recommend that any student seeking a traditional 4 year degree attend one of them. Your son is strong enough to be accepted at many, many LAC’s it would just boil down to which one has the most appropriate program.

14

Don’t listen to most people on here. At most I was a B student in one of the best high schools in MASS. I graduated high school at 17, so I was young, and as a boy, immature. I waited two years, then attended Boston College at night. I graduated with a 2.89 GPA and received a BA in Business Administration. For the past 16 years, I’ve been managing software development teams at Cisco and Juniper. So who cares how many AP courses you took or what your GPA was. Can you work is what corporate America is after. I’ve likely laid off many students who excelled at the SAT, took many AP courses and had a high GPA. Doesn’t mean a lick if you can’t execute at your work.

15

Thank you, I didn’t know Full Sail was for-profit.

I am thinking about Drexel because of the mandatory co-op, my understanding is that since co-op is required, there will be a lot more assistance to get him into a co-op. Anyone aware of other co-op required schools?

I think we’ll be visiting William and Mary in the next year and possibly a few more Virginia schools.

16

RIT requires a co-op. It’s a little far for you though.

17

U of Cincinnati.

18

True that a college doesn’t want a kid with a bunch of C’s in APs, but a selective college will have plenty of kids with Bs and As in AP classes and they will be viewed as more favorable than As in non AP/honors classes.
If a high school has tracks, (sometimes they have 3), the lowest track is usually not competitive for selective schools. And depending on the high school, the middle track may not be either. Check with your school’s gc to get an idea of where kids in each track have a shot.

19

Thank you, his GC is new and young (of course, sigh), and I might reach out to my older son’s GC (extremely helpful, I don’t want to turn this into a “what to get a GC or recommending teacher who was extremely helpful” thread, but we haven’t gotten anything yet because frankly a mug just don’t cut it…) or the head GC about this. I know my S18 is in the college prep track at least; I have SOOOO many students who didn’t even take college prep and it is very difficult for them as compared to the college prep students, even barring any honors or AP. Funny thing is we have many programs that attract top performing students, but few end up with us.

I have heard good things about U. Cincinnati, I will check them out for him. The interesting thing is, only this past year has he had interest in going to college to the point of learning more about things he is learning in HS. My oldest always assumed he would go to college, but saw it as a way to get a job not an experience or a journey (I think his opinion is changing now that he is in college).

20

What about a smaller school like a Marist. I know it isn’t known as a computer science power house, but it is overall a good school. The kids I know who go to Marist are good students - though not necessarily top of the class. Or perhaps consider some other school in that category.