<p>I don’t buy the OP’S premise AT ALL. I don’t see it now; I didn’t see it in my D’s high school math/science classes 5 years ago; I didn’t even see it in MY middle/high school classes 40 years ago.</p>
<p>I always wanted to be a scientist. I was great at chemistry and physics in high school. I was praised and encouraged by every teacher I every had from elementary through high school. </p>
<p>Oh, and this was a rural Southern town, so no especially enlightened school system, there.</p>
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<p>Your school system was apparently far more enlightened than a lot of others all over the country. :)</p>
<p>I can see an argument that the OP’s statements are overly broad. Subtle discouragement is probably not the primary reason for the under-representation of women in my field. Clearly there are places where people are not aware of any subtle discouragement of women going on–and indeed, where quite the opposite happens.</p>
<p>However, I don’t understand arguments that seem to be predicated on the proposition “It’s not happening around here; therefore it does not exist” (much like the planet Kamino, according to the Jedi librarian).</p>
<p>I generally give people credit for an accurate description of their immediate circumstances.</p>
<p>^^ True - but the OP’S argument seems to be “I’ve seen it happen around here, so it must be true.” That’s not a sound basis for an argument, either. </p>
<p>As the saying goes - the plural of anecdote is not data.</p>
<p>The NYTimes had a long essay, carefully researched, on the underminers. There is plenty of evidence for misogyny. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/magazine/why-are-there-still-so-few-women-in-science.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/magazine/why-are-there-still-so-few-women-in-science.html</a></p>
<p>I don’t buy into this at all. If anything I think that girls are very encouraged to go into STEM fields - whether they are interested or not. I can not tell you how many people suggested that D pursue an engineering degree. Despite her very strong math ability, she was far more interested in literature, reading and languages.</p>
<p>Carefully researched??? Not hardly. Anecdotes and profs at mega high level schools getting or not getting tenure. Has nothing to do with HS or even undergrad majors. Joke.</p>
<p>I have a daughter who took AP Chem, AP Physics C, AP Calc BC (and no other AP’s). She had the most difficult time with male teachers -I think because of their style of anger. She thought they went into a tirade when the class scored low on an exam. Often turned out -she had done good enough, but sometimes wouldn’t know this for some time. She would worry and fret. She stressed more about disappointing the teacher, the teacher flying off the handle. The subjects weren’t that difficult for her.</p>
<p>There seems to be a much higher attrition rate of women in the physical sciences which is independent of their skill level. Why this happens is unclear, but it’s a very real issue.</p>
<p>Between freshman and sophomore year in my graduating class, we had at least six girls who were interested in declaring a physics major. However, my friend and I are the only ones who actually went through with it. Among the other four girls, one is doing geology and the rest are in the humanities. While you may argue that maybe these majors are a better fit for them, the fact is that most guys I know stuck with the physics major, even if they weren’t getting the best grades.</p>
<p>I got the same lines for both genders, except in private school. My daughter almost went to a Catholic high school. I got a lecture from them when they found out my daughter had taken high school geometry prior to high school. They actually got nasty about it. They kept calling my son “your boy.” Found out, boys are allowed to be on an advanced math track, but girls are not. In earlier years, as a home schooler, when I went to pick up the algebra book for my daughter when she was going in to 7th grade, I got a lecture that girls need to learn home making skills, not algebra. And that she would not stay grounded and focused in the right direction if I let her do algebra as a 7th grader. The person who as giving me this advice was actually a teacher at a small private school. </p>
<p>I have seen parents (largely moms) who really want their girls to be pretty and to be cheerleaders and be popular. When I tutored math, when I was hired to work with girls, I was often given the idea that the parent just wants the girl to get through the math to pass. But with the boys, it seemed more like the parents wanted the boys to learn the math. I was always disgusted when a mom (it was always the moms it seemed) would tell me their daughters just don’t need to know math, they just need to get through it. There is a definite focus where I live, with some families, on girls being pretty and popular, not smart. (a girl could actually be both, but somehow, the “dumb” act is popular these days).</p>
<p>I think underminers exist in every field, for both genders, based on any pre-conceived bias present in an individual or community. I recall 30 years ago being a very good math and science student and being pressured by my female Calculus and AP Chem teachers to avoid becoming JUST a psych or lit major in college – not good enough for us smart girls. Their hearts were in the right place, but there really was no question that they looked down on non-STEM fields regardless of my own interests. Mostly people want their own life choices validated by recruiting more for the team, regardless of what “team” they are on.</p>
<p>It probably depends on the school. D’s high school did not discriminate and she is now a college freshman majoring in biology. </p>
<p>First semester is tough with general chemistry demanding her to learn quantum mechanics and math 3 challenging her grasp of math. She is digging in and making it work!</p>
<p>She did not hear these discouraging words - thank goodness! And I am not convinced that it is typical for schools to discourage girls.</p>
<p>Barrons: “Carefully researched??? Not hardly. Anecdotes and profs at mega high level schools getting or not getting tenure. Has nothing to do with HS or even undergrad majors. Joke.”</p>
<p>Gee, Barrons, I guess you don’t know how to read journalism. It must be a new genre for you. True, journalists do not tend to use footnotes, but that doesn’t make a NYTimes article un-researched. </p>
<p>The article begins with a well regarded Yale study, follows with number from studies from bodies varying from the American Mathematics Society, College Board, University of Michigan, MIT, the American Institute of Physics, another study from Yale (this time from Management, a psych study for Vanderbilt, and bunch of others that are harder to trace. I guess research on women isn’t real research for you.</p>
<p>higher attrition rate of women in the physical sciences Imo, plenty of kids find that the distinction between Stem and non-Stem is richer and more diverse, when they hit college. Who really gets the variety of academic opps in hs, that they are offered in college? </p>
<p>I did tell D1 that math wasn’t her make or break. But, she had clearly chosen a humanities path, had the intellectual skills and habits for that- and the lust. After being tops in math for several years, was struggling through the higher levels. There came a point where I literally said, you’ve paid the dues, make your best choices now. </p>
<p>Would someone say I had “discouraged” her? Well, maybe. Could it fit into some media article? Sure. Was it wrong? Nope.</p>
<p>I think this is invalid. Certainly not true for all.</p>
<p>As homeschooling high achievers ourselves, you can bet that we encouraged boys and girls exactly the same way. None of those sort of phrases were EVER said in our home. </p>
<p>And guess what…Males are stronger in Math/Science and the females are stronger in language arts in THIS family.</p>
<p>Uh-oh. Really want my opinion on the NYT link?</p>
<p>Sure, why not, my blood pressure has been pretty low this weekend. :)</p>
<p>^ we’d really need that dinner, to do this justice. And, first I’d listen hard to what you have to say about what you experienced. </p>
<p>It’s an article written in a very female style, (Urry’s “radiant eyes”- say what?) that unfortunately reveals many traditional female tripping points- I may never get a date, I don’t want to be aggressive, no one urged me, I’m not really good enough. It reminds me of my early days in my technology biz, when many female co-workers couldn’t acknowledge that what many women like, want and need, is not necessarily related to how the business was run. </p>
<p>I’ve had this argument with fine opponents- the notion that it’s all just so unfair to women. I prefer to remember that it’s only recently that women did enter competitive fields in masses and that these fields ARE, in many cases, historically structured toward male skill sets, interests (golf, I hate golf,) and ways of operating. It’s only as more women achieve more success- and serve as role models, that we will see the evolution we want. We can encourage our daughters but also point out that the struggle continues, their efforts will matter to the future. At our ages, we can look back and see some progress. More is needed. We just aren’t “there” yet. We can say we need to work for change- AND acknowledge that change takes time.</p>
<p>It’s going to take time, to see a shift. Note that the author held a freaking TEA, to attract participants. (Would she offer tea to males?) The prof admitted he didn’t encourage his students, not just this female. Urry *laughed. Women need more positive reinforcement, and men need more negative reinforcement." *</p>
<p>QM, I know the arguments. I raised my daughters trying to make them aware and encourage them to work to bridge the gap, to aim for quality performance, for all the reasons that matters, personally and to the tribe. With the elder just a recent grad (and working under a grant, not yet in the competitive world,) she has yet to see it. Ironically, my mother, a corporate person, had the identical talks with me, when I was D1’s age. And her mother, a woman in a very male field, had the same talk with her.</p>
<p>As a female engineer, I applaud efforts to increase STEM interest in hs girls. But I only only partially agree with the premise of this thread. It’s more complicated.</p>
<p>As and example, DS’s IB group was about 2/3 female. These were very bright and dedicated students from throughout the district, accepted via competitive application. Some of both genders dropped out after 10th grade pre-ib courses. Those that stayed were highly motivated, with supportive parents. However the most intense IB math class (Math HL… calc and more) was mostly boys. Not sure why.</p>
<p>To my surprise, I agree with almost everything that you have posted, lookingforward.</p>
<p>Only one minor quibble: The setting of the tea was at Yale, where the Masters of the various colleges all regularly host Master’s Teas, bringing in (usually) eminent and/or famous non-Yale people to address topics of interest. There was actually nothing gender-specific about the tea, other than the composition of the audience.</p>